Learn me: E46 M3

I was pretty well sold on a 6-speed TL until I looked at the KBB value on a 100k mile M3. KBB says $10k - $11k, but every car I'm seeing on craigslist with this mileage is listed for $14k - $15k with dents and dings and other issues.

Thoughts on the discrepancy between KBB and actual price? If they're really commanding that price, then more power to the sellers. Are these a maintenance nightmare compared to the TL (I have two customers who own them and have put over 300k trouble-free miles on them.) Based solely on "recently replaced" items from the CL ads, it would seem as though they eat suspension bushings and clutches.

Awesome fast cars, great handling and brakes.

Pricey consumables.

Yeah the M3 is flogged harder than a TL. And the M3 hasn't really dipped below $15k yet in my area. Unless it's SMG or in bad shape. I've done lots of soul searching and I would rather have the TL over the M3. That may partly be because I'm done with coupes. And the roads being total crap in my area.

poopshovel wrote: Thoughts on the discrepancy between KBB and actual price?

KBB always ALWAYS undervalues enthusiast cars. To them, an E46 M3 is just another 10-year-old BMW.

As far as the cars themselves, I'd love to own one, but I'm a-scared.

Tom_Spangler wrote:

poopshovel wrote: Thoughts on the discrepancy between KBB and actual price?

KBB always ALWAYS undervalues enthusiast cars. To them, an E46 M3 is just another 10-year-old BMW. As far as the cars themselves, I'd love to own one, but I'm a-scared.

Gotcha. Yeah, makes sense on the pricing. Scared of maintenance costs?

Tom_Spangler wrote:

poopshovel wrote: Thoughts on the discrepancy between KBB and actual price?

KBB always ALWAYS undervalues enthusiast cars. To them, an E46 M3 is just another 10-year-old BMW.

^^this. The only E46 M3's I have seen around $10k or less have been convertibles and the odd high mile SMG.

I wouldn't be too afraid of the maintenance depending on the PO. The ITBs are complex though and it seems that a lot of E46 M3's have been driven HARD and put away wet. There is a kid in the local BMW club who will redline the piss out of his right after starting it, has no respect for the thing and claims "It's an M, it can handle being driven hard." Okay buddy.

I had a 2005 for 60k miles and no problems. Mine was SMG.

If you want to get into one of these, you need to consider only 2005 or 2006 cars. Previous cars are more prone to rear subframe cracks and have the rod bearing problems.

Whichever car you buy, have the subframe area inspected for cracks. This is best done by removing the subframe, but that means $$.

Slippery wrote: I had a 2005 for 60k miles and no problems. Mine was SMG. If you want to get into one of these, you need to consider only 2005 or 2006 cars. Previous cars are more prone to rear subframe cracks and have the rod bearing problems. Whichever car you buy, have the subframe area inspected for cracks. This is best done by removing the subframe, but that means $$.

I thought the rod bearings were limited to 2001.5 and earlier cars? And most have been replaced under warranty.

A nice 2005/6 car is going to be well north of $25k. At least they were last summer when I was looking at one.

They are fast, and the interiors are a big improvement over the E36 cars. If you are comparing to an Acura TL, a 330i or ZHP is a more equal competitor. The M3 is a much much faster car with extremely high limits compared to the Acura.

That said, I've never been a huge fan of the way they handle....at least stock. BMW dialed in a bunch of understeer to keep things safe. To make them really come alive, a bit of suspension re-tuning is needed.

They do haul ass though.....and they make a weird metallic-like engine note, some love it, some don't. If you are serious about one, save your $$ and buy the absolutely best one you can find. You'll pay a premium, but will save money and frustration in the long run.

z31maniac wrote:

Slippery wrote: I had a 2005 for 60k miles and no problems. Mine was SMG. If you want to get into one of these, you need to consider only 2005 or 2006 cars. Previous cars are more prone to rear subframe cracks and have the rod bearing problems. Whichever car you buy, have the subframe area inspected for cracks. This is best done by removing the subframe, but that means $$.

I thought the rod bearings were limited to 2001.5 and earlier cars? And most have been replaced under warranty. A nice 2005/6 car is going to be well north of $25k. At least they were last summer when I was looking at one.

You might be right as I am not 100% sure, but it was always my understanding that rod problems went all the way to 2003. Subframe was improved in the '05/06 by using the convertible reinforcements. Mine was actually a convertible. Also, Inspection II is expensive at the dealership. I cant remember exactly, but I think it was $1800.

If you are comparing to an Acura TL, a 330i or ZHP is a more equal competitor. The M3 is a much much faster car with extremely high limits compared to the Acura.

Totally. Wasn't trying to dump them in the same class. More of a "For ($X,) why buy a 15 second (y) when I could have a 13 second (z?) Having driven the TL and a ZHP, I'd go for the TL, all things considered.

A friend of mine picked up a real cream puff with mid-70s on it for $17k in the greater philly area last year and that seems like the price point for a good M3 still today.

They are freaking awesome cars. Really. A bit more pricey on the consumables than the E36 but much more solid, civil and speedy. Last of the good looking 3 series and IMO the prettiest. It's not a tossable razor on the race track like either of it's predecessors but it in a lot of ways is actually more capable. Like tooling around town or destroying 1000 miles of highway in a single day, or screaming out of a corner on the loud pedal with a little opposite lock. The motor is a berkeleying piece of wet dream engineering too... just make sure the factory bearing stuff is all up to date and never, ever take it to 8k RPMs until the oil is warmed up.

I adore mine. It is the best car I've owned (I used to say that about my E36 M3, but this does everything better). I've got over 1000 track kms on it, and probably close to 100 autox runs. Plus lots of distance driving. It is awesome!

Consumables aren't crazy. I run a square set up for tires, so that helps. Gas milage isn't awful -- not exceptional, but not awful. Oil changes are pricey because they need 10w60 -- not easy to find -- and they use lots of it.

I am in the "don't love the exhaust noise" but don't hate it enough to pull off a perfectly good system and spend 1500 or more for something better.

My only grip is a noisy AC system. Otherwise it's the perfect car -- I can drive to events with 4 extra wheels and tires, or the family. And it eats the miles on the highway. Such a great car!

What is the deal with the exhaust? I have never heard one sound good, street cars at least.

I've seen a lot of decent examples in the $12-14k range. Depending on what you're going to use it for, put me in the camp of "buy a $13k example and properly track prep it," over "spend $22k on a cream puff."

Extra wheels/tires, supension, bushings, cooling system refresh and any other deferred maintenance. ~$7-10k, minimum.

If you're going to track it, both the $13k version or the $22k version are still going to need this work done.

Tyler H wrote: I've seen a lot of decent examples in the $12-14k range. Depending on what you're going to use it for, put me in the camp of "buy a $13k example and properly track prep it," over "spend $22k on a cream puff." Extra wheels/tires, supension, bushings, cooling system refresh and any other deferred maintenance. ~$7-10k, minimum. If you're going to track it, both the $13k version or the $22k version are still going to need this work done.

I went the higher mileage, cheaper route as above. The best part for me is that the previous owner had also tracked the car, and done the all the right maintenance to make it track worthy. Plus I got 12 wheels and tires out of the deal. The downside? Some minor cosmetics. And it was due for a valve adjustment. The upside? Lots of spare parts, and the car is extremely well sorted.

I'd love a perfect, low mileage cream puff, but it wouldn't stay that way in my care so why spend the money? I maintain my cars, but they don't sit around . . . they get driven.

Paul_VR6 wrote: What is the deal with the exhaust? I have never heard one sound good, street cars at least.

They just sound bad. Its in a weird way, but most people laugh at it. The only one I've heard that didn't should like that had a full race spec open exhaust. And even then, it still didn't sound good. The S50/52 sound better, but the s54 is by far better.

Also, the s54 takes a lot of that unusual oil thanks to its dry sump setup.

Thanks for all the responses. This would be a DD, hopefully in the beginning of next year when my commute is not as ridiculous. The cheap bastard in me says "Drive the (almost 400k mile) integra till it dies! Then fix it, drive it some more, and give it to the kid when she gets her license!"

The adult car enthusiast in me says "You've worked your ass off since you were 13, and never had a fun, fast, comfortable, cool (figuratively and literally) DD. It's time." I really long to have a car that I can't wait to drive home from work in every day.

The "Inspection I/II" thing seems to come up regularly and I have no clue what that entails. I'm ASSuming the top end requires occasional attention?

In reply to poopshovel:

When the latter part manages to beat up the cheap bastard part, let me know what techniques were used... or I'll be driving a diesel station wagon for another 10 years... granted, I do have a "Friday car" (or three....) to temper the diesel doldrums...

Ian F wrote: In reply to poopshovel: When the latter part manages to beat up the cheap bastard part, let me know what techniques were used... or I'll be driving a diesel station wagon for another 10 years... granted, I do have a "Friday car" (or three....) to temper the diesel doldrums...

Will do...but fair warning: For the last 15-20 years it's been "Cheap bastard 1. Self-indulgence 0."

In reply to poopshovel:

Indulge responsibly dear friend! Tomorrow is not promised so go for it. Or compromise slightly, keep the teggy and get an E36 M3. But enjoy life a little, it seems due.

Hmmmmm: http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/3890167900.html

poopshovel wrote: Hmmmmm: http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/3890167900.html

HNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGG!

Racer1ab wrote:

poopshovel wrote: Hmmmmm: http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/3890167900.html

HNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGG!

Yeah, that is a sexy combo. Comp package in carbon with dark wheels .... I'd go take a good look at that one.

poopshovel wrote: Hmmmmm: http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/3890167900.html

Why wouldn't you?