Learn me: (gasp!) Bagged Suspension.

Yall should see some of the builds over at Stanceworks.

Big Cadillac's and Lincoln's are just made to be bagged.

Thing is, a 60's Caddy is already long and low. They don't really NEED to be bagged. But that doesn't stop people from pulling the springs out to slam them. It's usually the last step before the junkyard for most. Maybe 5% survive it.

I have a bagged vehicle. But it's a full height 3/4 ton diesel truck that has supplementary bags for load capacity, and I fill it with an air hose from my garage compressor. So I have little to contribute that is useful

When I had my Mercedes 300CE-24 coupe, I was thinking of bagging it. But I sold it before I got that far.

What I've always wondered is: what happens to the alignment? Don't you have to do a 4-wheel alignment every time you change the ride height on a car with modern independent suspension?

Stanceworks has all of your answers, they probably have the third best build section on the interwebs. On top of that all the parts you want are for sale "slightly used" or "wrong one ordered" in the classifieds. Good luck, we're all counting on you.

Bobzilla wrote: Also beware of icing in northern climates. I can remember a lot of bagged C/K guys with frozen compressors, busted lines, blown bags etc due to freezing.

It's a little known fact that you're supposed to replace the air compressor filter/dessicant bag on a regular basis. I think it's every year or every other year. I don't think it's even in the scheduled maintenance chart.

You drop the compressor down and the filter/dessicant are in a little housing. GM sells it as a kit with the O-rings to reseal the housing, and the spring that is usually rusted apart. Here's an example

I have no useful contribution either but I've come to class the joint up a bit.

I be hears to gets an edumcations

LanEvo wrote: When I had my Mercedes 300CE-24 coupe, I was thinking of bagging it. But I sold it before I got that far. What I've always wondered is: what happens to the alignment? Don't you have to do a 4-wheel alignment every time you change the ride height on a car with modern independent suspension?

Oddly enough, alignment is the reason I've been thinking about air suspension for my VW.

Here's why. I have this VW wagon that makes an AWESOME parts hauler and is capable of towing cars. However, my experience is that they get sketchy - REALLY sketchy - when there's a lot of weight in the back. Shouldn't happen with an iron 5 cylinder and heavy trans holding the nose down. What clicked was speaking with someone who had one and lowered it and noted that it would destroy the inner edge of the rear tires in a couple thousand miles.

So suspension compression is making massive toe-out in the rear. Oops.

So, if air suspension were used to keep the rear end up when loaded down with gear, it should handle a whole lot better.

I am a fan of all motorsport enthusiast ventures, from hard parking to racing and all points in between.

I have my eye on a mid 1950s Cadillac sedan that I would like to put a GM Atlas 6 cylinder with a pair of turbos, a 4L60E, air bags and wide white walls.

I figure that it would be easy to find a Trailblazer parts vehicle, they are hearty engines that are very surprising when boosted and no one would have thought of it!

Too many ideas too little money.

Keith Tanner wrote: Thing is, a 60's Caddy is already long and low. They don't really NEED to be bagged. But that doesn't stop people from pulling the springs out to slam them. It's usually the last step before the junkyard for most. Maybe 5% survive it. I have a bagged vehicle. But it's a full height 3/4 ton diesel truck that has supplementary bags for load capacity, and I fill it with an air hose from my garage compressor. So I have little to contribute that is useful

On the contrary, any input is welcome. I had air shocks on my Javelin in high school. Not a good idea, as I just wanted to jack the back up like all the other kids who didn't understand vehicle dynamics.

As to the slammed look, its nice to look at, but I much prefer hella functional. That's the image of airbags, and I'm hoping to discover some real world usefulness. I understand it is out there.

Thanks all for contributions. I'm off to stanceworks to see what that's all about. Good info ChandlerGTi, & yupididit.

In response to Knurled, Thanks for that, I was wondering about the compressor. My initial thought was buy a cheap, crappy one, and treat it as a consumable, because, I'd likely find a ride height/ride I liked, and leave it, as opposed to "laying it out" when I parked. In fact, were I to proceed with this idea, I doubt I'd go super low like a lot of pictured cars. But back to the compressor, Is airflow important? I'd think so, but again, not so much if you aren't constantly raising and lowering the suspension. If , say mounted under a truck bed, ls it better to build a sealed box to protect it from the elements? I'd have to say so.

I also appreciate the conversation on alignment, and from what I can tell, that is just part of the scene. There will likely be some adverse effect if you slam a vehicle. For me, I'd figure out a good alignment at ride height, and again, for the most part, leave it. My dream is much more about decent driving dynamics than the look, despite all the pics I've posted.

Lots to ponder.

In reply to wheelsmithy:

I never looked into if there are significant pump differences, but Mark VIIs and front-drive Continentals had air suspension front and rear, as opposed to helper shocks like GM used, or rear-only air like most other Lincolns. By memory, the Mark VII that my grandfather had did not need very much time to air the springs up if the car sagged from sitting for a long time. Maybe a minute tops. So, one of those Lincolns would be my gut feeling for a pump.

I did a bunch of restoration/maintenance on an early 70s Eldorado last year, and part of that was diagnosing the air shocks. Very interesting setup in those cars. Buried in one of the fenders was a VACUUM OPERATED air pump. I guess when you have 500 cubic inches, you can do that. The interesting part to me was the control mechanism, it was just a 3-way valve connected to the rear suspension that referenced the air shocks to tank pressure or atmosphere depending on if the car was too low or too high. Dead simple.

I suppose there's no point in being cagey. CLynn's F100 thread polluted my mind with its awesomness

I've got this cummins

So, the idea would be take this, mix liberally with this or this and retain the best of each donor. The Cummins stays, along with its AOD transmission. Obviously, the truck's body is perfect, and would only need the bed shortened a bit to be on task.

So, to back up a bit, the truck has been wrecked. A lot. I had a four wheel alignment done, and the shop didn't say anything was bent, but one side of the front suspension droops worse than the other. Both sides are obviously shot. I suspect the frame is not what you'd call straight. The 3/4 ton springs in the back are, ahem, harsh. To say this thing rides like an oxcart is an insult to oxcarts everywhere. After rebuilding the fronts, the brakes are adequate. Barely.

I do love this truck, and wow, what an engine. What's more, everyone loves it. For some reason, this piece of crap really resounds with darn near everyone it comes in contact with. So, I'd like to give it new life.

If I'm honest with myself, I seldom use this more aggressively than a 1/2 ton. I'd like to do some light towing, bring plywood, and building supplies home, and as always, runs to the dump. I read Skinny G's thread on re-arching leaf springs, and trust his judgement (he said if he had to do it over, he'd do bags, and a multi-link- I couldn't find the thread).

I've been scouring P71/ Ford truck body swap info on the web. They say the finished truck with P71 running gear is somewhere in the neighborhood of the same weight as the Crown Vic, possibly a touch lighter. Thing is, compared to a 4.6, the Cummins is +500lbs.

I know its a lot of rambling, thanks for your patience if you are still reading. Almost there.

So, were I to proceed, I'd have a truck on a full sized car chassis that was 500 lbs or more heavier than it was designed to be up front,and light in back. The 8"rear end would be okay for my projected power, but definitely the weak link in the driveline. Gearing is in the ballpark. Bags would work for my towing/hauling goals, and compensate for that huge engine up front. Brakes would be much improved, but carrying maybe 1000 more pounds than they were designed for. Again, feel free to shoot holes in my logic. This is all a bench build at the moment, anyway.

wheelsmithy wrote: I read Skinny G's thread on re-arching leaf springs, and trust his judgement (he said if he had to do it over, he'd do bags, and a multi-link- I couldn't find the thread).

I have links, but I can also confirm - I would not re-arc leafs again.

I fully intend to bag my next truck (looking for a 64-66 C10).

wheelsmithy wrote: To say this thing rides like an oxcart is an insult to oxcarts everywhere. After rebuilding the fronts, the brakes are adequate. Barely.

Can confirm. I understand completely why you would cut it up and put it on a panther chassis. I personally don't like my Cummins enough to not use either an LS or maybe a Gen 3 Hemi in such a contraption.

If you want good handling consider air springs instead of air bags. An "air spring" is basically an air bag that's hollow in the middle so your strut can go through it, and you can install it in place of a regular spring. Rides at least as well as a metal spring when suitably inflated, and can be deflated for hard parking.

One day I will bag my Elky.

GameboyRMH wrote: If you want good handling consider air springs instead of air bags. An "air spring" is basically an air bag that's hollow in the middle so your strut can go through it, and you can install it in place of a regular spring. Rides at least as well as a metal spring when suitably inflated, and can be deflated for hard parking.

My understanding was that those types did not ride as well as traditional airbags, due to them having less volume, of course, my source is someone who wants to sell airbags- you know the type, THIS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT IS OUR WAY! WE ARE THE BEST, OUR COMPETITORS ARE THE WORST.

Let me just duck off to check air spring link with good info.Good lead, sir.

I looked up hard parking, because I had no clue what that meant. According to urban dictionary, it is tricking out your car (usually Honda) with race parts, then not racing. I don't plan to do any of that.

It seems to me - as someone who hasn't actually done it - that this is a fairly straightforward thing to do. I mean, by the standards of GRM forum inhabitants, who have a tendency to stitch cars together, rebuild expensive engines and make their own beef jerky in hotel rooms using furnace filters.

You pull the springs and replace them with bags. This is the tricky part, getting the size right, but you've already got that info. Welding may be required. Then you need an air source. You can figure out with volume and pressure if a home-filled tank will do the job. If you go with an onboard air compressor, then it's the usual balance between air requirements, flow and storage. Since you're not planning to make the car dance, a slow and steady compressor with no tank should do the trick. Heck, you could probably plug it into your cigarette lighter. Or get a tank of compressed CO2 from your local welding store

I'm thinking the first step is to pull the stock springs and find out how much the stock suspension can articulate. I know the minitruck guys will rebuild the entire suspension to allow the trucks to lay frame, but you probably don't want to go that far.

Keith Tanner wrote: It seems to me - as someone who hasn't actually done it - that this is a fairly straightforward thing to do.

I concur, working PSI, load ratings, max and min heights, and diameter, seem to be about all you need.

Image just for you, Keith, and to be clear, this makes me want to puke.

To be serious for a moment, corner weighting with the push of a button, anyone? Seems like an advantage for air suspension.

That Miata looks broken

IIRC, the old Citroens with hydraulic suspension could lift a wheel to allow you to change a tire without using a jack.

I have a cousin in New Zealand who is very into air-cooled Porsches, and somewhat surprisingly, bagged Porsches are fairly common down there. I think that they like the looks, but they also like the adjustable ride height, so that the same car can hit the track and navigate rough backroads, steep driveways and speed bumps.

This is what he uses: http://www.airrexus.com/

In reply to Kreb:

There are pro touring kits, and stuff that is supposedly hi-po. Air Lift performance has kits for air cooled Porsches, late 90's integras, BR-Zs, and the like. Apparently,not just for laying frame.

A more practical question: Could I buy a brand new, unused air tank, and weld additional fittings on it? I'm a certified weldor, but by no means capable of pipe, or nuclear type stuff. I'd be inclined to try. Of note on air tanks, the first source I found says bigger is not better.

For those keeping score at home, my idea of using ball valves wouldn't work too well. You'd need 8. One up, and one down for each wheel. I didn't think of that. So, that's maybe $50 bucks worth of ball valves, tons of compression fittings, and lots of junctions to potentially fail. The $160 manual controllers start sounding Okay at that point. Alternately, I'm thinking 4 schrader valves would be a decent answer.

This guy put an International Diesel in a S-10 front clip for this, so maybe my Cummins in a Crown Vic isn't too far fetched.

Crap, there's a lot of eye candy out there.

Also, in response to Keith, I remember hearing the same thing about Citroens. They could lift a leg like a dog.

Enabling