manladypig
manladypig New Reader
5/29/19 2:20 a.m.

So I'm attempting to do some rust repair in the drivers footwell, and I'm having some trouble with my panel I made

so, part of the footwell is the wheel well and then it contours down to the crossmember (or whatever you call it) and my plan was to use carboard to get the dimesions by coutouring the cardboard then marking that and trasfering onto metal. Then I welded in 2 1/2 sides and I was gonna hammer it down to contour it (sorry if im using that word too much) But, I kind of forgot about the whole shrinking and stretching part of metal shaping and I cant quite get it all the way flat as it has nowhere to go. I don't care how it looks this is a budget race car I just need it to stop the air from coming in. I tried cutting many small cuts into the side that needs to shrink with tin snips but that only worked a little bit, what should I do?

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
5/29/19 7:02 a.m.

I like welding more than panel beating, so my method is to make a patch like that out of two or more pieces of steel.  Shrinking is more art, or perhaps magic, than skill to me.

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
5/29/19 8:48 a.m.

You need something (dolly) to back up your hammer work or you’re going to keep stretching it out.  In the future make the patch fit as well as possible before welding.  

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 HalfDork
5/29/19 11:03 a.m.

As another Fiat owner, this process is vital to know! I have been doing metal shaping for over 50 years (including professionally) so here are a few basics to help you along: 1) As Patrick said, make the panel fit before you begin to weld. 2) Steel hammers used with steel dollys stretch the metal. 3) Soft hammers and or soft dollys are used for shrinking. 4) Lots of little taps works better than a few heavy slams. 5) Use multiple pieces as Streetwise suggests when the curves are tight. Steel does not like to shrink well cold, the oxy-acetylene torch is your friend, but be careful not to overheat it. Dull cherry red is hot enough to anneal for further shrinking when it gets hard, also to stress relieve after welding.

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia HalfDork
5/29/19 12:19 p.m.

It's hard work and murder on your ears......

Now look on YouTube for Lazze , he is a Swede up in the SF Bay area ,  he is more into silent forming , 

English wheel , shrinker stretcher and his own built bead roller.....

Real nice guy and very good using those tools, 

He has classes for a lot of $$$ but does show up at a lot of shows to demonstrate his stuff.

Make a pattern with paper and you will see where there is extra material you need to blend in, 

So many people on YouTube ,  

It really comes down to how much time you have to learn and practice ,  I could not put the time in to get good :)

Crackers
Crackers Dork
5/29/19 10:03 p.m.

With sheet metal working there are no hard and fast rules. Guidelines for different methodologies are often conflicting/contrary to each other while both still being true. 

As far as working the metal itself, for our purposes there's really only 2 practical operations. Bending and forging. 

Bending is fairly self explanatory, but forging in this context could use some elaboration. 

Forging is basically deforming metal under pressure. When you forge something 2 things happen simultaneously, you compress it beyond it's yeild point and it will begin to expand away from the forces put on it. 

If you forge sheet steel compressing across it's short axis (hammer on the flat sides) it expands in the opposite direction stretching it's linear dimensions and thinning. The opposite is true too, although compressing sheet metal across it's long axis without simply bending it is exponentially more difficult. 

So with that in mind, the goal for shrinking is to compress it along it's long axis. You're trying to squeeze the metal between the hammer and the dolly in a way that the force on the panel goes along the length. 

In practice, if we're looking at a bump that need to be hammered flat you'll hold a dolly from underneath just outside of the area that needs to be forged down (or "shrunk") and hammer just past the apex of the bump on the opposite side of your dolly. 

You'll need to swing the hammer in a glancing/circular motion so that the force moves at an angle towards the dolly along the long axis of the sheet. 

Moving metal along the long axis like that takes a lot of force to keep the effected area localized enough to shrink it vs bending it down or just moving the panel as a whole. What I usually end up doing is working my excess metal into a narrower/taller section or multiple sections and then try to shrink it down. It's easiest for me to shrink if you're working across a 70-40-ish angle in the sheet between hammer/dolly. Too tall and it folds, too shallow and you just bend it and push the high spot around.

I prefer to shrink cold. When trying to move a lot of metal hot it is really easy to accidentally fold it over on itself. (It's not particularly difficult cold either) Also, when you heat metal you end up losing some thickness to oxidation/scale and can easily end up making the metal too thin over a few heats. This assumes you're just hot forging. Thermal shrinking is complicated and quite limited. Really only effective for minor adjustments on low crowns or removing small dents.  

Hammer and dolly material are not important if you're working with this methodology. All I use are steel hammers. Working this way I'm not afraid of adjusting a panel as I weld it in. (Within reason.) Sometimes I'll actually tack in a patch in the corners then slowly work it down, shrinking/stretching between tack welds and adding tacks in the middle until I get a flush welded seam. 

As far as the "2 operations" thing, there are a couple exceptions. Main one being the use of a mechanical stretcher. Also hammering into a gap like between the jaws of a partially open vise, a dolly with a hole, sandbag etc. However it takes very hard, very accurate swings otherwise you just bend and wrinkle the metal and is not really practical for someone without a LOT of hammer control.​​​​​​

Realistically, in this case, it might be easier to just cut an "X" across it, overlap and fold it flat-ish and run a cutting wheel across it again to get a good butt weld seam. 

I know that's a lot of information, and I'm tired and probably need to come back and edit the hell out of this later to make it make sense.

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