Learn me old(er) suburbans

So, as mentioned in another thread, I'm going to look at a 1988 suburban 2500 saturday. Two wheel drive, 454, 700r4.

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Other than typical old car stuff, is there anything Suburban or drive train specific I should be looking at? I know the alternator has been rebuilt as has the steering column. Ac compressor leaks. Rear tailgate window works but driver pw is slow. Cruise control works. Front end is supposed to be okay but has never been rrbuilt. Exhaust new, true duals, but has a slight leak between manifold and block. Needs a seat cover and head liner too.

I owned an '87 of the same model and drivetrain. Likes: Big Block power made towing easy. Parts were cheap. The engine is trouble free with just normal maintenence as is the trans. Dislikes: Gas mileage. 11-9 mpg towing or non-towing, it didn't mater. Road like a old truck. Was hard to load due to the height of the deck. Not all that roomy if you load it up with stuff. I used an open trailer for my race car so everything went into the Sub. If you have an enclosed then this may not be an issue.

Window is probably hard old grease in track, clean it out and it'll probably work right. Frame cracked at rear shocks on my dads 90 not from rust but from miles, had to weld the cracks then reinforce with a large welded on washer. Theyre simple as can be really.

The one you're looking at has no overdrive, expect 10mpg

Get a 4x4 instead

Thanks guys. Will check the frame, but at only 120k miles I'd be surprised if it's an issue. I'm a little concerned about the comfort level of the seats but that's also upgradable. I'm sure it will ride like a truck, but anything that can tow 8k lbs easily is going to. Ditto for mileage, and it won't see a lot of miles anyway. Heck, my V8 explorer only got 11 towing my camper on the last trip out.

Other concern is that he says the exhaust leak is minor and gets quiet as the truck warms up. I'm hoping it's not an internal engine noise.

Check all the electrical accessories. They, and the wiring, like to start crapping the bed after 100,000mi.

On the exhaust leak - my girlfriend's dad has a 454 dually truck, and he had exhaust leak problems for 15 years or so and just got used to replacing gaskets once a year. Recently he looked into it and found the headers had a spot without much contact to the block. He welded it up and hasn't had a problem with it in the past year - previously the gaskets were blowing out after one heavy tow with their trailer. So it could actually be just an exhaust leak and not engine noise - see if you can find a sooty spot where it's leaking from?

I had a 1988 3/4 ton 2WD with the 350, TBI and a three-speed automatic. While I did put 105K miles on it with lots of towing, I had to replace the engine, transmission, power steering pump and rack, alternator, one header, U-joints, A/C evaporator, vent blower motor, fan clutch, etc., etc., etc., Rusted like crazy, even after moving to Arizona. Taillight wiring never worked properly. Headlights were dangerously bad.

It got 12 MPG without the trailer, even babying it. I had an 18' open trailer and it towed that plus a Spec Miata great. I could stretch out in the back to sleep, or curl up on a front or middle seat to sleep. It drifted great in the snow, and was great for bashing snow drifts.

I sold it because I wasn't (am still not) a good enough mechanic to keep it reliable. It stranded me twice on tows to races. Coming from german and japanese cars I was pretty disgusted with the engineering. Particularly the rats nest of belts on the front.

Most shameful was the lack of headrests on a 1988 vehicle. I'm sure there was a loophole GM drove that one through, but I also will bet dollars to donuts that GM lobbied for that loophole. This bit me in the a$$ when I was rear-ended resulting in chronic whiplash to this day, fifteen years later.

Thanks, GM, and please choke on your bailout dollars.

DWNSHFT wrote: Thanks, GM, and please choke on your bailout dollars.

holy flounder batman!

bear in mind, as you bitch about the design, that the truck was the same essentially as a 1973, and the chassis went back to the early 60's almost unchanged. and that rat's nest of belts? an 88 had a 350 TBI, with a single serpentine belt just like any other modern vehicle.

I owned a 1990 GMC 2wd half-ton with the Tailgate. With a Oval Kart, Tools, and Four Human Beings, it got 19mpg if driven easily. I love that thing. The only thing outside of regular maintenance was an Alternator that welded itself to the bearing and a rust issue around the left side muffler. It could hold 32-34 gallons of fuel. I'm not sure because the pump cut off at $100.00. Best $1,000 I ever spent on a Automobile.

Join me in my adventure...

Love these box-body burbs. Had a '77 in college, 350 quadrajet 3 speed auto, and just bought the '91 (see above link) 4x4 350 TBI with overdrive.

Depending upon your frame of reference, they are either awesome or terrible. My wife and I grew up being carted around in older GM trucks, and our other cars are older, so we're pretty tolerant of the 'Burban's lack of refinement and appreciative that it's easy enough to fix with a mallet, using parts that can be found under any rock.

I don't know how others get close to 20 mpg with the non-Vortec engines, though. We get about 15, regardless of how we drive, even with the OD. And that's a 350.

If you get a 454 truck, check if you have the peanut port heads cause a upgrade to used 049 heads would really wake it up for cheap. Probably get better mileage too, gm really choked them down after the gas crisis

patgizz wrote: bear in mind, as you bitch about the design, that the truck was the same essentially as a 1973, and the chassis went back to the early 60's almost unchanged.

Yeah, that's sorta the point. They did bother to add bumpers, but not headrests. It's not that I mind an old design, but rather that they didn't engineer it to keep up, they just band-aided it for two decades.

There is really nothing to worry about with the truck itself. Mid-80s was a pretty low point for GM. They were on the very bottom of the bell curve when it came to successful powertrains that excelled at anything. That 454 was rated at 215 hp (I think there was a 235hp option) and it consumed insane quantities of gasoline. At the time, every company was trying to make decent power while conforming to EPA/CARB and also trying to not rape customers' fuel wallets. GM failed the most at that game in the 80s. If I'm going to get 9 mpg, I at least want some balls to go with it.

The low specific output is what also allowed them to "modernize" with a 4-speed auto, but unfortunately the 700r4 is a pretty light duty transmission. It will take some punishment, but it will NOT take abuse. Keep your tow loads under 5k and never (and I mean never) tow in OD. The OD uses a band on a drum to overdrive a planet set. The band will not take the abuse of towing. If you're lucky, it will just slip. I have seen some rare situations where it ripped the band off the servo and crumpled it up between the drum and the case turning the whole unit into scrap metal. Shifting into OD also reduces flow in the cooler circuit by about 30%. In actuality, I tow in OD with mine as long as my foot isn't causing it to shift. Manually shift down before giving it the foot.

Expect valve seal leaks and a little smoke. Exhaust leaks have been covered. Don't look for more power with any one bolt-on. The TBIs were fantastically matched engines with tiny cams, tiny head ports, low compression, modest intake flow, and uninspired exhaust manifolds. You could pretty easily spend $1000 on the typical external mods and get zero hp or tq from it. Cam specs are something like 185/192 duration with a 117 LSA.

Overall, it is a traditional BBC and 700r4 with time-proven parts. It likely has a 9.5" SF rear (or a 10.5 FF if you're lucky) which will likely last 3 million miles. Parts are dirt cheap for the whole truck. Alternators for $35. Wheel cylinders for $2. Water pumps for $17.

Its just that the late 80s were the lowest point in parts quality and efficiency for GM. Thinner block and head castings, wheezy.

That is not to say its bad. The worst GM of the late 80s is still a good vehicle. Its just that if I had my choice I would either go back to the Qjet years (up to 86) or skip ahead to the GenV years. (96 and up maybe?)

Did they stick 700R4's behind BBCs? I thought those 3/4 tonners got the TH400, which would move a mountain before it slipped. And returning single-digit MPG numbers.

If I were going 3/4 ton, I'd go for a '92 or newer with the 4L80E trans. I don't know if you can tow in OD with those, anyone (Curtis?)care to comment?

I saw a really, really clean 3/4 ton here in Northern VA for 5k recently. I think it was a 94. 454, and like 120k miles. I was very tempted.

Here's some near me:

http://york.craigslist.org/cto/5367835481.html

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/cto/5358610177.html

http://york.craigslist.org/cto/5361478159.html

http://easternshore.craigslist.org/cto/5354595020.html

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Did they stick 700R4's behind BBCs? I thought those 3/4 tonners got the TH400, which would move a mountain before it slipped. And returning single-digit MPG numbers. If I were going 3/4 ton, I'd go for a '92 or newer with the 4L80E trans. I don't know if you can tow in OD with those, anyone (Curtis?)care to comment?

Yup, 700r4. Had two of the 3/4s with them. They were kinda pressured by the market to go with 4 speeds before they had an adequate unit.

I tow in OD with 4L80Es. The OD can handle some significant torque, but the shifts in/out (as with any transmission) are the real killer. Full torque while the clutches are applying or releasing is when most of the wear occurs. So I usually back off the pedal for a second just before it would downshift and manually select 3rd if I have a lot of weight behind me.

I've owned several square body pickups through the years and would be willing to own more. Pretty much everything said is true. Fuel mileage sucks. Ride quality wouldn't be too bad with a 2wd if the front end is in good shape. Parts are cheap and available. Its crazy easy to work on. I would probably install a new high quality distributor and fuel pump if you are going to do long trips. Those are the usual suspects when a gm of that vintage gives you a no start. Otherwise just go through all the normal maintenance items and it should be good to go. Anything you don't like will be easily upgradable.

In reply to curtis73:

Thanks, that's kindof what I suspected. In fairness, the later 700R4's were somewhat improved over the earlier units- they had stronger shafts with higher spline count, and some other improvements IIRC- I think these upgrades cut in around '88 or so. And a decent trans shop should be able to upgrade a 700R4 to tow a cruise ship, if desired. I simply had a Trans-Go shift kit and a .500 boost valve installed in the 700R4 in our '91 'Burb, and it shifts quickly and firmly.

If you look at one of those 3/4 tonners I posted above, the gear selector only shows 1-2-D, not OD, so they may have had the 700R4 as an option then. I wonder if the diesel got it?

Another thing for the potential shopper- the '92 and up got IFS on the 4x4 models, which as alluded to really helps with ride quality. Its the main reason I'd consider upgrading our box to a later one. 2WD models ride fine, but apparently I'm in the 1% of people who actually need the 4x4.

curtis73 wrote: I tow in OD with 4L80Es. The OD can handle some significant torque, but the shifts in/out (as with any transmission) are the real killer. Full torque while the clutches are applying or releasing is when most of the wear occurs. So I usually back off the pedal for a second just before it would downshift and manually select 3rd if I have a lot of weight behind me.

There are few things more alarming than 2am, 600+ miles from home, entering a highway up a grade, engine pulling hard, and when the trans upshifts the revs barely drop. Let off throttle, rig slows down, end up finishing the grade at 35-40mph with hazards on Getting there slowly is still better than getting there on the end of a hook. (NOT a GM transmission. As much as I like to rag on GM, they know how to make transmissions!)

I will tow in OD in a 700R4/4L60 but like you say, only if it doesn't need much throttle, and I'll manually downshift before I have to bear into it. It's a combination of mechanical sympathy and mechanical courtesy.

The 700R4 also acts like a 5 speed. In OD, it still has one more trick up its sleeve- converter lockup. Likewise when downshifting, it'll unlock the converter and let you play with a few hundred extra RPMs to see if that'll get you the oompf you need to get over the grade or pass that pokey car. It really is a nice unit- if, like they say, you know its limits and treat it with courtesy.

Unless there is something seriously wrong with this, it has to be a better choice for towing, comfort and safety.

2001 for $3500

But beyond the transmissions, comparing an ancient design like the 1988 to something a decade or more newer, isn't there big improvements in things like brakes/cooling/efficiency?

What is the real world difference between say a 1988 454 3/4 ton, a 1997 350 1/2 ton, and a 2003 5.3 1/2 ton? All of them can be had for roughly the same money. All should be about the same amount of power. I'd think the newest one would have the best brakes. Thoughts?

KyAllroad wrote: Unless there is something seriously wrong with this, it has to be a better choice for towing, comfort and safety. 2001 for $3500 But beyond the transmissions, comparing an ancient design like the 1988 to something a decade or more newer, isn't there big improvements in things like brakes/cooling/efficiency? What is the real world difference between say a 1988 454 3/4 ton, a 1997 350 1/2 ton, and a 2003 5.3 1/2 ton? All of them can be had for roughly the same money. All should be about the same amount of power. I'd think the newest one would have the best brakes. Thoughts?

My 05 5.3 1500 avalanche pulls 6k easier off the line and stops it better than my 90 454 3500 dually did. The biggest difference was with the beefier truck the rest of the drivetrain and suspension was up to it, the half ton stuff is not hence why I'm shopping a bigger rig again. For occasional towing the newer half ton would be glorious but for what i do, ive got around 4 grand in driveline repairs in 2.5 years

Da Boss's Sierra has the good old 8.5 rear and it's done well over 200k without a rebuild. The '88-9? half ton trucks would usually need rebuilds every 90k or so.

In reply to patgizz: Wow My 97 1/2 ton Chevy has 350,000+ miles on it. I've massively overloaded it repeatedly over the nearly 2 decades I've owned it and it has kept on running fine. I've spent about $1000 in repairs (plus normal maintenance) and only once has it broke down on me..

It's hauled home over 50,000 board feet of timbers, as big as 12"x12"x 24 feet black walnut (that's enough wood to build about 10 normal homes) and over 4 tons of granite at a time. Hauled my race cars all over the country. Over mountains and through snow so deep you can't open the doors. Not to mention over a dozen Jaguars to salvage parts from.

I can't help but wonder why I have such "luck" while you have problems? I've known several owners of newer trucks that are getting similar usage and "luck" while a few are having troubles as well.

frenchyd wrote: In reply to patgizz: Wow My 97 1/2 ton Chevy has 350,000+ miles on it. I've massively overloaded it repeatedly over the nearly 2 decades I've owned it and it has kept on running fine. I've spent about $1000 in repairs (plus normal maintenance) and only once has it broke down on me.. It's hauled home over 50,000 board feet of timbers, as big as 12"x12"x 24 feet black walnut (that's enough wood to build about 10 normal homes) and over 4 tons of granite at a time. Hauled my race cars all over the country. Over mountains and through snow so deep you can't open the doors. Not to mention over a dozen Jaguars to salvage parts from. I can't help but wonder why I have such "luck" while you have problems? I've known several owners of newer trucks that are getting similar usage and "luck" while a few are having troubles as well.

I need some of your mojo!