Learn Me: Saab 9-3 GM Edition

I've been coming across stuff like this a lot lately:

http://richmond.craigslist.org/cto/5689973454.html
http://greensboro.craigslist.org/cto/5685529617.html
http://lynchburg.craigslist.org/cto/5683372113.html

What's the catch? They feel pretty solid. Fit and finish seems to be above typical GM crap for a car 10+ years old (remember, I DD a Saturn...). Turbo, Manual, motor has good potential, etc. Seems like way too much car for $2500

Do any have a LSD?
5 or 6 speed better?
What's a 'Vector'?
Big 2.0T vs. 2.0t?

My roommate for a few years was a saab tech living in Madison. He even drove one of those because it came in with a destroyed head and the couple that owned it could not front the money to have it fixed, so he bought it from them for peanuts and fixed it himself.

I think they started having a central CAN bus control unit that would go bad and basically render the can non-functional. Of course he was used to dealership prices, but that was a 3k-4k repair he said. As soon as his started doing some slightly sketchy things, he sold it for what he had into it with full disclosure (which was still way under 'blue book' at the time). I can tell you he would not recommend, he thinks much more highly of the slightly older 9-3s and the 9-5s.

It drove really nice though, and I don't remember it actually leaving him stranded at all for the couple years he had it. Great interior, quiet, cool features (like a built in ice scraper!), etc.

I'm pretty sure there are a few engine options and that is the deal with vector, aero, T vs t, etc. Some are real, (like the actual existence of a turbo or not, or I4 vs V6), but some are programming differences, meaning same or similar engine running different boost levels.

I have had several of these. An 04t sedan, 08T convertible (still have), and a 10T sedan (still have). they are very good cars. The 6-speed cars of that vintage are the 6cyl turbo cars, and are much more difficult to work on. I would whole heartedly buy a 4cyl turbo of t or T. The difference being the amount of boost. the t is a 170hp, and T is 210hp. I would not buy an 03 they had considerably more problems with the first year cars. if you have any other questions feel free to ask.

In reply to ProDarwin:

I've an 04 Aero convertible. It's a wonderful car, when it feels like it. It has not been the pinnacle of reliability. But, it's been the pinnacle of repairability.

As I recall and have come to understand:

Arc and Linear are the base models. Vector became Aero in 04, and is the fancier hotter model. Semi-easily identified by the silver switch trim in the steering wheel and the paddle shift buttons on the steering wheel. Helpful when looking at cars.

t vs T is turbo boost, and don't count on the seller having it right. In fact, I'm not sure it's really a difference.

The manual transmission seems more problematic than the automatic.

No LSD in any of them I think.

V6 is a lot hotter and more problem prone than the 4 cylinder.

God awful job replacing the 4 cylinder water pump.

The 6 speed manual was available later on the 4cyl. 2008+, IIRC. The are AWD models, DON'T buy one, you have been told. The FWD are quite good after 2004. Aeros get lots of gadgets and goodies like bigger brakes and wheels and really don't cost much more so why not. The V6 has more issues than the I4, but makes more power. 325 hp is just a tune away, 400 hp with a turbo upgrade. It is lots of car for $2500 for a person who 1) has another car to use why waiting for parts 2) doesn't mind searching a little for parts on the web 3)accepts the possibility that a part may be impossible to find 4) doesn't need financing, 5) likes to be different. A GRM kind of person.

PS. they have really good paint, doesn't rust much and it holds up well to stones, etc.

An '05 Aero will have the reliable 4cyl with a 6spd manual and big 'T' turbo plus sport seats 17" wheels, larger brakes, better stereo, lower springs, HID lights, and other stuff. That's the best one IMHO.

I own an 03 9-3 2.0t. Was a previous lemon, don't know any specifics price was too good to say no, every small issue I've come across seems to be well documented online and a pretty simple fix. For me all the used parts are very cheap and seems like you can find parts very easily at least here in MN. Plus with a swap to the big T turbo and some tuning and bolt on items its at 300hp which makes it much more enjoyable. Bought with 140,000, now at 150,000 with the tune etc. And no issues so far that haven't been more than an hour to fix. Some things are odd, NEEDED a second key is a big deal, and there's needing a TechII to marry certain parts to the car, which I've never needed yet, but could cause an issue if something electrical goes south.

I've posted it before and will again here. My brother had a 2005 9-3 Linear and it was a really excellent car. Nothing fancy, not overpowering, probably not terribly sporty by autocross standards. But very comfortably, knocked down 35 mpg at 80 mph on the highway, held up to his utter neglect, and when a C-10 pulled in front of him on a country road it held up to a head on accident with a big truck at speed better than anyone has any right to expect from such a small car.

I highly recommend them.

RE: Performance

Mods don't seem to be well documented in my google searches. What's a 2.0T with bolt ons make, at the wheels. How much $ for the parts? What vendors?

I've heard that the motor is basically the same as the LSJ except turbo. I know turbo LSJs can make quite a bit of power (300+ whp) and are well documented. Do any of the parts swap? I assume the computer is a whole different beast - can't just use HPTuners?

saabcentral.com

Robbie wrote: My roommate for a few years was a saab tech living in Madison. He even drove one of those because it came in with a destroyed head and the couple that owned it could not front the money to have it fixed, so he bought it from them for peanuts and fixed it himself. I *think* they started having a central CAN bus control unit that would go bad and basically render the can non-functional. Of course he was used to dealership prices, but that was a 3k-4k repair he said. As soon as his started doing some slightly sketchy things, he sold it for what he had into it with full disclosure (which was still way under 'blue book' at the time). I can tell you he would not recommend, he thinks much more highly of the slightly older 9-3s and the 9-5s. It drove really nice though, and I don't remember it actually leaving him stranded at all for the couple years he had it. Great interior, quiet, cool features (like a built in ice scraper!), etc. I'm pretty sure there are a few engine options and that is the deal with vector, aero, T vs t, etc. Some are real, (like the actual existence of a turbo or not, or I4 vs V6), but some are programming differences, meaning same or similar engine running different boost levels.

At Zimbrick? When was he there?

ProDarwin wrote: RE: Performance Mods don't seem to be well documented in my google searches. What's a 2.0T with bolt ons make, at the wheels. How much $ for the parts? What vendors? I've heard that the motor is basically the same as the LSJ except turbo. I know turbo LSJs can make quite a bit of power (300+ whp) and are well documented. Do any of the parts swap? I assume the computer is a whole different beast - can't just use HPTuners?

from my short foray into saabs, the saab folks are still very "stage 1,2,3,etc" centered. However, it does give an easy way to approximate gains from standard combos of parts. Here is one that should be pretty accurate. The computer can be tuned with freeware and some inexpensive hardware to interface the CANbus to your computer. I'm using a 'CombiAdapter' but there are other options out there.

https://www.brewcityboost.com/product/ecu-upgrade-t8-3/

To mtn, yes, at zimbrick, he would've been there like 2007or8 through 2011or12. One of our good friends still works in the body shop there so we still know a few of the current guys. You know someone there?

GenuineSaab.com is the big performance part vendor for the 9-3SS.

ProDarwin wrote: RE: Performance Mods don't seem to be well documented in my google searches. What's a 2.0T with bolt ons make, at the wheels. How much $ for the parts? What vendors? I've heard that the motor is basically the same as the LSJ except turbo. I know turbo LSJs can make quite a bit of power (300+ whp) and are well documented. Do any of the parts swap? I assume the computer is a whole different beast - can't just use HPTuners?

Simple trick is to pull the F2 fuse, which resets the ECU. This works because the ECU starts from a max power mode and then tunes the engine downwards as it learns your driving habits. You can rig it up to reset this every time you start the engine with just an inline fuse holder.

A uncontrolled boost increase gain is to disconnect the line to the waste gate. Then the unit builds maximum boost. Not sure how high it will go, but it goes well above normal, at a substantially lower rpm. Power increase is appreciable, turbo makes some interesting moans and whistles this way. Interestingly, the ECU trips no codes with this. Car pulls much more strongly with this simple mod.

From a 2.0T it would be the tune $200, downpipe $350, intercooler $75, intake $50, clutch is most expensive unfortunately. Diy'ing mine is still about $400 with a new flywheel. It seems the tuning may be a little inexperienced, it is the same engine as the lsj cobalts which can make 350~ without internals but all tuners seem to stop around the 300~hp mark because fear of pistons dying. My Saab engine will ultimately end up in a fiero, so I dont mind putting some cash into it.

In reply to sassyness77:

2006 auto 2.0T here. Go for the larger T. There are LSD's available for the manual. There are some saab specific parts to look out for when buying this car. Here are some trouble spots I can remember.DO NOT expect all aero's to have big brakes, go to the door panel and check out the codes to determine what size brakes the car has. You could swap out the front for cobalt brembos if you so choose but need 17's to clear the brakes.

Stage 3 should be around 300bhp -330bhp if you want to push it I'm sure if you asked one of the tuners they could set you up with it. You'd need colder stage spark plugs, down pipe, larger fmic. I think the stock turbo on the b207r (2.0 BIG T) is a td04-14. There are people who fit bigger compressors in the same housing.

1) Ignition coils on the 4 cylinders can not be interchanged with other coils. They are saab specific sadly, you'll get a misfire if you try brands outside of OEM. Coils are about 115$ a pop if i remember.

2)(Only applies to cars made before 06) The audio in the car can be a pain in the butt to upgrade. Amp1 under the driver seats likes to take a dump when water is introduced. The car audio uses fiber optics so you can't really upgrade to a generic amp.

3) Vacuum pump leak, on higher mileage cars the vacuum pump located on the right side of the engine bay driven by one of the cams can leak oil, replacing gaskets don't seem to do much. New vacuum pump is like 150$

4) Newer 4 cylinder engines I think made after 07 had problems with the valves, something about gm cheaping out manufacturing process.

I've got coilovers on my car which makes me miserable, but i think it handles pretty well for a fwd car and also can't beat 30+ mpg going 80mph on the high way.

I would not hesitate to buy another saab 9-3 as a daily driver.

So roughly $1000 for 300hp/300tq with a clutch that can handle it from a 2.0T. I really wish the xwd system didn't fail so easily, I'm not sure if its just because the forums are filled with problems obviously, or if they really do fail constantly. I always keep my eyes open for a 9-3 turbo x. Does anyone on here own an xwd aero 9-3 or turbo x?

In reply to sassyness77:

I don't own one, but I can tell you that the XWD system is a Haldex unit as seen and loathed in many Volkswagen products.

sassyness77 wrote: So roughly $1000 for 300hp/300tq with a clutch that can handle it from a 2.0T.

Or a nickel for a little cap. Either way.

In reply to foxtrapper:

The ECU is only part of the battle; the stock pea shooter down pipe and catalyst can't really flow more than ~230HP effectively. Some debate the need for injectors, FMIC, catbacks etc. but the stock down pipe is pretty universally agreed upon as the biggest mechanical restriction on modern Saab turbos. As he noted a stronger clutch doesn't hurt either...

2.25" isn't exactly peashooter diameter. Especially for a 2.0 liter engine.

For reading entertainment, http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-9812-2-quarter-inch-exhaust-3-inch-exhaust/

In reply to foxtrapper:

It certainly is on a turbocharged engine! Naturally aspirated is a different story and not really applicable.

Even in that article (about a naturally aspirated V8, which again, is a different beast) you will notice that the 3-inch outflowed the 2.5-inch in the higher RPMs. Turbos live in the higher rev range; the only advantage to a small turbo exhaust is faster spool, after that it's nothing but a restriction.

Assuming a 2 bar input pressure, and a 7ft system length, the system flows like this: 2.25" - 111m3hr 2.5" - 147m3hr +32% 3" - 237m3hr +113% and resists like this: 2.25" - .61bar 2.5" - .35bar -42% 3" - .13bar -78%

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-218174.html

The facts of the difference on my Saab 9-3 Sport M99, Stage two software, is as follows: Standard downpipe, 2.75" Hirsch cat-back exhaust, recorded 232bhp With stage two software, JT 3" downpipe, 2.75" Hirsch cat-back exhaust, recorded 249bhp. I make that a difference of 17bhp - a difference achieved only by fitting the 3" downpipe.

http://www.saabscene.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-95526.html?s=6c6e2054a3f289b433524c46aaee1a0a

sassyness77 wrote: So roughly $1000 for 300hp/300tq with a clutch that can handle it from a 2.0T. I really wish the xwd system didn't fail so easily, I'm not sure if its just because the forums are filled with problems obviously, or if they really do fail constantly. I always keep my eyes open for a 9-3 turbo x. Does anyone on here own an xwd aero 9-3 or turbo x?

I was delighted to buy a 64k km 2008 Turbo X manual wagon back in 2011. It had already had the $5k rear LSD replaced. I replaced about $8k of warranty stuff until it ran out. They I started replacing on my own dime about $4k of stuff before deciding I really didn't enjoy the car enough for all the heart ache. Another owner replaces all the same stuff I did plus his motor took a dump and blew a piston with less than 100k on it. The AWD was a gen 5 Haldex in it's first application in a car. Saab owners were the beta testers. The rear diff has 3 different fluids in it and seals that leak and wreak havoc. When I was selling only a few units were known to exist in the parts inventory. The transfer case likes to leak and is UNREPAIRABLE by normal humans. The self-leveling rear struts last about 60k km and cost $900 each. There is other bad stuff like failing axle boots. Replacements parts were difficult to find and cost 5 times as much as reasonable. It's not just me either. Stay away.

It was a terrific driving car on snowy roads. The AWD was programmed by some Swedish rally drivers, because power slides were simple and perfect every time with the ESP on.