Learn Me Thread Number MMMMCMXCIX: 2000 Saturn S-series

Ethnic Food-Wrap Aficionado wrote: So, what is the cream of the crop or goldilocks Saturn S-Series? Years to avoid? We are looking for something to replace our e46 wagon with; these seem to check all of the boxes. Cheap, reliable, available in a wagon and 5MT, easy to maintain, possibly not soul-suckingly dreadful, etc. Portland CL is pretty much lousy with 98-01 wagons for $2kish.

Depends what you are looking for.

Wagons were not made until '93.

93 and 94 are basic 1st gens, but the only year the SW2 was available with rear discs (ABS only). They swap over easy enough from SL2s and SC2s though for later years though. About $200 in parts to do the whole thing with new stuff from Autozone. 93-95 were the only years to have a non-metal roof & rear hatch. They are the most plastic of all the Saturns.

95 is what is most sought after by enthusiasts (yes, we exist). It has the 1st gen exterior which looks better to many, but still has the 2nd gen dash & steering wheel. Its OBD1 also.

96-98 are just basic 2nd gens. Good cars. Sometime in this range the steering rack on the SL2 and SW2 became the same as the coupe (2.7 turns lock to lock). Again, not hard to swap if that's what you want.

99 is a bastard year with unique engines as they were transitioning to the newer engine. Depending on what point the car was made during the year it may have some weird combination of the two. Not a bad car by any means, but for swapping/servicing powertrain stuff it can be annoying.

2000+ 3rd gen exterior & interior. Newer engine. The newer engine is not as good for performance mods, but does make the same amount of power out of the box. I believe air pumps were on some cars this year, and became standard in 01.

The chassis is basically the same the entire run. All brake/wheel/suspension/etc. is interchangeable. Just don't buy a single cam. The DOHC returns roughly the same mileage, has 25-46% more power, and is the same price in today's used market. SOHC cars also don't have a rear swaybar, have crappier seats, sometimes narrower wheels/black bumpers, etc.

ProDarwin wrote: 95 is what is most sought after by enthusiasts (yes, we exist). It has the 1st gen exterior which looks better to many, but still has the 2nd gen dash & steering wheel. Its OBD1 also.

Oh good, I am not the only one who appreciates the '95's blending of the best exterior looks with gauges that are large and legible. Best gauges ever in any car.

Something that belongs in the minor annoyances that ruin a car thread: Gauges with needles so thick that they encompass the entire width of the different hash marks. The '95-up Saturn gauges are the exact opposite of that. The needles end in POINTS.

Black bumpers generally means that it is an SL, not even an SL1. The SL was the only way you could get manual steering, if that sort of thing is important to you.

I drove the car this morning, and decided it probably isn't my thing.

While it seemed to be a good example of the breed, the good aspects of the car, for me, were overwhelmed by the "GM-ness" of everything else.

It's located at Lonnie's Tire and Auto in Mascoutah Il, in case anyone else is interested. Lonnie can be gruff and sort of off-putting, but he's a good guy.

Do it. Saturns can be hopped up fairly easily, and they make great rallycross cars.

G_Body_Man wrote: Do it. Saturns can be hopped up fairly easily, and they make great rallycross cars.

"souped up" GR2s are the best struts you can buy, bolt ons to barely anything, no reflash tuners for the stock ecu or pnp megasquirt... And the spyder gear shaft likes to exit the trans casing at high velocity if you have too much tire spin.

In reply to Leafy:

Huh, I previously read otherwise. Time to re-read and find good sources.

On the other hand, taking the diff out is a piece of cake. Its the first tranny I ever took apart and last I heard, besides nicking the input shaft seal it was perfect for the new owner of the tranny. Some welding holes the pin in easy or MFactory sells a helical for it.

Knurled wrote: We've had good luck with decarbonizing oilburning Saturns.

What process were you following to do this? There are a lot of opinions out there about what works and what doesn't. I'd love to at least slow the oil burning in my '99 SW2.

Leafy wrote: On the other hand, taking the diff out is a piece of cake.

In the old days we called that damning with faint praise.

They also have a kinda weird front suspension where the sway bar doubles as a locator for the control arm, which makes replacing the control arms a bit of a pain. Also - I second pulling the diff and welding the pin in. Or just wait until you blow it up spinning the tires, and weld the replacement before you put it in.

They're a lot of fun for not a lot of money though.

cmcgregor wrote: They also have a kinda weird front suspension where the sway bar doubles as a locator for the control arm, which makes replacing the control arms a bit of a pain. Also - I second pulling the diff and welding the pin in. Or just wait until you blow it up spinning the tires, and weld the replacement before you put it in. They're a lot of fun for not a lot of money though.

"kind of weird". Thats the McPherson strut suspension as Earle S. MacPherson intended it to be.

Well let me extend my apologies to the honorable Earle S. MacPherson.

They're still a pain in the ass to get both control arms back in haha

Yeah I wouldnt know. I never dug that deep into the one I owned. I did sell it when one of the sway bar mounts on the front subframe was pretty rotted though. Thats going to be an interesting ride for someone when it finally lets go.

I had a 92 base model Saturn with a five speed that I bought from the original owner with 450,000 miles. It consumed oil, a lot of oil, about a quart in a week and a half. For what it was it was a lot of fun and the biggest plus I bought it for $450 drove it for over a year putting 30,000 more miles on it and sold it for $900. All I had to was keep an eye on the oil, i put new brakes on it, water pump and a radiator.

Leafy wrote:

G_Body_Man wrote: Do it. Saturns can be hopped up fairly easily, and they make great rallycross cars.

"souped up" GR2s are the best struts you can buy, bolt ons to barely anything, no reflash tuners for the stock ecu or pnp megasquirt... And the spyder gear shaft likes to exit the trans casing at high velocity if you have too much tire spin.

ST* level bolt ons do just about as much as they do for most other non-turbo cars... probably more than Miatas. With a tune they are good for 130+ whp.

For suspension, yes there is basically nothing. Best bet is to mod the top plates of GC/GD coilovers to fit. That said, KYBs+ H&Rs are a pretty good combo that feel comparable to factory "sport" suspensions on some cars.

Couple people have been tuning 1G ecus recently. One guy on the 6S has it to the point where he (I think) can change maps (tune) but not add routines (boost) without opening it up.

I looked into a saturn for awhile for a second car. It seems to have minor problems that turn into big ones, like a transmission pin in the differential that can work loose. It also has no options for an LSD, except for phantom grip.

The headlights suck as well, everyone just leaves them on high all the time.

Both these things are fixable, the transmission fix seems to be tearing into the transmission and welding the pin into place, which doesn't always fix the problem.

Saturn's used to be a dime a dozen, but I'm slowly seeing less and less of them. Honestly if I were looking for a wagon I think I'd go Honda Accord Wagon.

MFactory sells a helical for them.

Carefully wet sanding and buffing make a big difference on the head lights. The Diff pin is only an issue if you race the daylights out of the car or go from 5000rpm wheel spinning on ice in 3rd gear to full traction immediately.

digdug18 wrote: I looked into a saturn for awhile for a second car. It seems to have minor problems that turn into big ones, like a transmission pin in the differential that can work loose. It also has no options for an LSD, except for phantom grip.

It's not THAT big a problem. Certainly it's not as big a problem as the explode-o-matic diffs in the Mazda G-box, which, if you're keeping score, is the transmission found attached to the F2T, as well as pretty much any front drive Mazda of note. (As well as all Escort/ZX2 after 1990, and some Focuses)

Gearheadotaku wrote: Carefully wet sanding and buffing make a big difference on the head lights. The Diff pin is only an issue if you race the daylights out of the car or go from 5000rpm wheel spinning on ice in 3rd gear to full traction immediately.

Depends on the form of racing. From what I've heard it isn't that common. I've never heard of one failing during racing except rallyx where its easy to sustain wheelspin for a long long time and heat everything up. I'm sure a few turbo guys have blown them up at the drag strip though.

Key is not to spin the tires for a lengthy amount of time. Don't peg the throttle in the snow, don't pull the ebrake up and do a long standing burnout.

In addition to phantom grip and MFactory there are Quaife diffs as well. Once you weld the pin in place, the transmission is pretty robust.

As far as the headlights, I think it depends what model you have. There were 6 different headlights over the years. None were great, a couple of them are bad.

A lot of British and European Fords, like Anglias, Consuls, and Capris use the sway bar as the locating link to the track arm. My Lotus Seven, for what it is worth, uses the sway bar as the forward locating link for the track arm.

I can't say I prefer it, but it is simple.

cmcgregor wrote: They also have a kinda weird front suspension where the sway bar doubles as a locator for the control arm, which makes replacing the control arms a bit of a pain. Also - I second pulling the diff and welding the pin in. Or just wait until you blow it up spinning the tires, and weld the replacement before you put it in. They're a lot of fun for not a lot of money though. Heavy cars with the sway bar as a fore aft locating link can experience toe changes under braking. Potentially under accelleration too with FWD I suppose.

I am on my fourth Saturn S-series--a $500 1999 SW2 with a 1995 LL0 engine transplant. It seems like there may be an issue with the 1999+ engines. I've never had any transmission issues despite running R-compounds and other sticky tires. I am tempted to do the 5th gear swap to improve the highway mileage.

Racing on ice last weekend--constant spinning.

My previous 3 were all 1995s. First was a 1995 SL1 5 speed bought for gas mileage, then I bought a 1995 SC2 for H Stock autocross use, and a 1995 SW2 5 speed for family hauling. I spun a rod bearing in the SC2 on some grippy concrete, rebuilt that engine a couple of times, and its now living on in the 1999 SW2. 30,000+ miles and no oil consumption.

AMR 22mm rear sway bar waiting to be installed.

H&R Race springs on KYB GR2s. I quite liked this combination on the SC2. I am not a fan of the Saturn KYBs, but they do seem to last forever.

I've been using OEM 1991/1992 tubular 4-2-1 exhaust manifold for last few years, and I think the final merge is going out again. I am tired of dealing with exhaust issues. I purchased the OBX cat-back system this winter for the wagon when whatever cheap aftermarket pipes that were on it feel apart. Flex joints are always failing:

I hate the front seats--seem to be made for little people.

My 1995s were all pretty basic: manual locks, manual windows. The 1999 has power locks (and remote), power windows and cruise control. All appreciated for daily duties. I wish it had ABS/rear disks--completely sucks not to have ABS in winter or for motorsports use.

The 1995 SW2 was rusting pretty badly when I got rid of it. I definitely prefer the look of the early wagons with their plastic roofs (the 1999 has some dents up there.)

I am also not a big fan of the 90's dark green, but the red coupe was a ticket magnet.

The 1999 SW2 was running on three cylinders when I bought it:

autopsy:

Knurled wrote:

digdug18 wrote: I looked into a saturn for awhile for a second car. It seems to have minor problems that turn into big ones, like a transmission pin in the differential that can work loose. It also has no options for an LSD, except for phantom grip.

It's not THAT big a problem. Certainly it's not as big a problem as the explode-o-matic diffs in the Mazda G-box, which, if you're keeping score, is the transmission found attached to the F2T, as well as pretty much any front drive Mazda of note. (As well as all Escort/ZX2 after 1990, and some Focuses)

F2T cars have an H-type transmission which is much stronger than the G. It was also in the vulcan-powered Probes.

So it looks like upu can adjust caster with that? Or does it work with compression rods?

Matthew Huizing wrote:

I am on my fourth Saturn S-series--a $500 1999 SW2 with a 1995 LL0 engine transplant. It seems like there may be an issue with the 1999+ engines. I've never had any transmission issues despite running R-compounds and other sticky tires. I am tempted to do the 5th gear swap to improve the highway mileage.

Racing on ice last weekend--constant spinning.

My previous 3 were all 1995s. First was a 1995 SL1 5 speed bought for gas mileage, then I bought a 1995 SC2 for H Stock autocross use, and a 1995 SW2 5 speed for family hauling. I spun a rod bearing in the SC2 on some grippy concrete, rebuilt that engine a couple of times, and its now living on in the 1999 SW2. 30,000+ miles and no oil consumption.

AMR 22mm rear sway bar waiting to be installed.

H&R Race springs on KYB GR2s. I quite liked this combination on the SC2. I am not a fan of the Saturn KYBs, but they do seem to last forever.

I've been using OEM 1991/1992 tubular 4-2-1 exhaust manifold for last few years, and I think the final merge is going out again. I am tired of dealing with exhaust issues. I purchased the OBX cat-back system this winter for the wagon when whatever cheap aftermarket pipes that were on it feel apart. Flex joints are always failing:

I hate the front seats--seem to be made for little people.

My 1995s were all pretty basic: manual locks, manual windows. The 1999 has power locks (and remote), power windows and cruise control. All appreciated for daily duties. I wish it had ABS/rear disks--completely sucks not to have ABS in winter or for motorsports use.

The 1995 SW2 was rusting pretty badly when I got rid of it. I definitely prefer the look of the early wagons with their plastic roofs (the 1999 has some dents up there.)

I am also not a big fan of the 90's dark green, but the red coupe was a ticket magnet.