It's not like the $300/mo lease isnt viable, but the used purchase actually has residual value at the end. I wonder what the price floor on these will be?
Prii have dropped almost as low as any other 10-15y/o economy car, but the Volt will always have a huge battery pack and i feel like that will dictate that they never drop THAT cheap because of the usefulness of huge battery packs.
I've got questions of functionality for you guys that have them. In the winter, does remote start actually start the engine, or use a electric heater to warm the interior? If it's electric, does it work better if plugged in? 110v or 220 mandatory for electric heat? Basically you can bring the interior to the temp you want before unplugging and start your drive with a full battery right?
What does it do if you remote start while unplugged?
In cold weather its been mentioned battery range is 10miles or so less right? Is that due to the battery just being cold, or because you've got the heat, seat heaters, defroster and headlights all on? Seems like those accessories would suck the battery down fast.
FWIW, the other day it was freaking cold and I happened to be behind an i3 getting on the highway. Never saw one before. I suppose there is some international standard where electric/mostly electric cars have to be some butt-ugly two tone half-black paint scheme. He disappeared off into traffic.
25-odd miles later, we happen to get off at the same exit. Dude starts hauling ass down country roads. Didn't seem to be too concerned about battery life 
What is the hold mode?
Also the used car is easier to add the value of the vehicle in my case I would be replacing, not sure how "trade in" or whatever works on a lease and in a couple years the car still has value with the Lease I just rented the car long term. Plus for my commute I'd be over 15k a year and have to pay extra for mileage.
I see 2013 with 25k miles or so still around the 18k=19k mark so if the 13/14 models are a big improvement its still an option. I still think when the 2016 model finally launches we will see the market tank on the existing ones a bit more.
TGMF wrote: I've got questions of functionality for you guys that have them. In the winter, does remote start actually start the engine, or use a electric heater to warm the interior? If it's electric, does it work better if plugged in? 110v or 220 mandatory for electric heat? Basically you can bring the interior to the temp you want before unplugging and start your drive with a full battery right?
If it's really cold (26F in a 2011, slightly adjustable in later cars), it starts the engine. Otherwise, it relies on the electric heat, which is an element in the coolant loop. The coolant loop has a valve that shuts it off from then engine so you're not heating the engine too.
The electric heat can draw quite a bit of power. 6kW initially IIRC. That means if you're on 110, it can take 30 minutes to get back to full after a 10 minute remote start cycle. On 220, it only takes a few minutes.
What does it do if you remote start while unplugged?
Same behavior as above, drawing from battery only.
In cold weather its been mentioned battery range is 10miles or so less right? Is that due to the battery just being cold, or because you've got the heat, seat heaters, defroster and headlights all on? Seems like those accessories would suck the battery down fast.
It's both of those things. If you do a remote start and let the battery charge back up, that warms it up and some of the range is restored, depending on how cold it is.
I was very happy with my leased Volt. Ultimately, it was too small for my daily needs, but I look forward to the next time I can go electric.
Jaynen wrote: What is the hold mode?
In the '11 and 12 cars, the car runs on electric until it runs out of charge, then switches to the gas engine to keep the batteries charged at that rate, but it will run the wheels if you accelerate or go up hills, because the battery is too discharged to run the car all the time. The engine also is running all the time when the batteries are discharged, even at low speed, so it's not as efficient.
In the '13 and '14 versions, they added Hold mode, which is simply where you press a button and the engine fires up to "hold" the batteries at the state of charge they were at when you pressed the button. What this does is allow you to choose when the engine is running. A good use of it is longer trips, outside the battery range, especially if you have some highway driving in the middle. You use electricity to get to the highway, switch to Hold mode and fire up the engine to hold the battery charge where it's at, go down the highway at speed where the gas engine is most efficient, and when you get to your destination, switch back to pure electric power to drive around.
When doing this and driving down the highway, the gas engine will not be driving the wheels for anything, as there is enough charge in the batteries to do acceleration runs and climb hills. it will just hold the state of charge where it needs to be. And it will even shut down if the state of charge exceeds the hold point by a small amount. It's odd to hear the engine rev up and slow down and shut of with no bearing on what you're doing with the throttle pedal... But you can greatly exceed the fuel mileage rating by using Hold mode properly. Highway fuel mileage can climb up to 45-50 mpg, and then city mileage become damn near infinite.
Also as I've said before, if you test drive one, make sure it's charged. The drive around a bit in D and Normal mode. Then put it in L and Sport and feel the massive difference in regen and throttle response! Take it up to about 10 mph and punch it. So much fun!
Most of us with them just leave the cars in L and get maximum regen without using braking, and can gain range back pretty good. For example on my trip to work, I can go the 8 miles on 2 miles of indicated range. It also take me 2-3 miles of indicated range to go the 10 miles from my house to downtown Baltimore on the main interstate that goes into town, without using Hold mode!
I'd heard the sport mode tip and about it being more Tesla like.
So Chris my commute is probably 40 miles of interstate and 20 miles off highway a day. So would I generally want to use electric only until I hit the highway? in my case I would probably want to use as much electric as possible but be unable to charge at work (they do have a new charging station but it costs money to use so may not be efficient)
camaroz1985 wrote: I bought mine last year and have about 14k miles on it. It has been a great car. I have a 60 mile round trip commute, and get 35-42 miles on a charge in the winter and 45-53 miles in the summer.
If I'm reading that right, you have to charge it at work in order to be able to make it back home?
In reply to Jaynen:
My wife and I bought a 2012 last August with 39k on the clock and honestly of the 25 or so vehicles I've had its one of the best.Loads of torque, super smooth, incredibly quiet. We absolutely love it.
My parents bought a 2014 shortly after and are equally happy with their choice.
Jaynen wrote: I'd heard the sport mode tip and about it being more Tesla like. So Chris my commute is probably 40 miles of interstate and 20 miles off highway a day. So would I generally want to use electric only until I hit the highway? in my case I would probably want to use as much electric as possible but be unable to charge at work (they do have a new charging station but it costs money to use so may not be efficient)
Yeah, that would net you about 60-70 mpg average in daily use. (40 mpg on the highway plus 20 miles of electric woudl end up going 60 miles per gallon). In the summer, they tend to go about 45+ miles on a charge (I've seen upwards of 60 miles on a charge due to heavy regen). In teh winter, that drops to 35 miles or so (though you can still get back range with heavy regen by leaving the car in L vs D)
Chuckle, I hate these Volt threads.
I get myself all worked up over essentially stupid cars to buy as a daily driver. Things that are unreliable, but interesting to me. Saab convertibles, Jaguar XJ's, Volvo C70, etc. I spend hours convincing myself they wouldn't be a bad idea.
Then along comes another Volt thread, reminding me that is almost every way, the Volt is probably the perfect daily driver car. Made worse by me test driving one once, and finding it delightfully comfortable, and having every modern convenience I can think of, plus an extra 100.
Plus the darn things look pretty cool!
foxtrapper wrote: Chuckle, I hate these Volt threads. I get myself all worked up over essentially stupid cars to buy as a daily driver. Things that are unreliable, but interesting to me. Saab convertibles, Jaguar XJ's, Volvo C70, etc. I spend hours convincing myself they wouldn't be a bad idea. Then along comes another Volt thread, reminding me that is almost every way, the Volt is probably the perfect daily driver car. Made worse by me test driving one once, and finding it delightfully comfortable, and having every modern convenience I can think of, plus an extra 100. Plus the darn things look pretty cool!
I know the feeling, on paper I shouldn't like the Volt. Its fwd, heavy and has a tiny little motor, but in reality I absolutely love driving ours.
Chris_V wrote: Here's my problem with buying a used one for $17k: it's gonna cost you $300 a month for a 5 year loan to do it. You can lease a new one for that $300 a month. The used one will be obsolete in 5 years, so by the time the loan is paid off, it'll be time to replace it, so you're still going to be making a payment, but on an older car. The '13s and '14s have better tech and better options than the '11-12 cars. So just lease a leftover '14-15 and spend the same money to get a newer, better car. The Hold mode added to the '13-14s is a godsend to make it a viable long distance car with much better fuel mileage than it's rated at. And the '11-12 models can't be upgraded with that feature.
OK, I kinda want to challenge this, and be shown the err of my thinking.
I looked at the lease. The GM lease limited driving to ~10 thousand miles per year as I recall. That basically killed it for me, as I typically drive 15-20k a year. I asked about a higher milease lease, and they didn't have it to offer. Now perhaps different GM dealers have different lease terms. Dunno, didn't go visiting other dealers to find out.
At the end of a lease you have nothing. At the end of payments you have a car. Yes, it's a few years old. But so what? Yes, you could trade it in on another new car, but you don't have to. Being a Volt, it'll probably be running just fine, and will continue to run just fine for a number of years.
Leases always require the car to look spiffy when you turn it in. I know some people can keep a car for years and have it look showroom new the whole time. I am not one of those people. Oh, I try, but I fail. Minor scrapes, door dings, something spilled, etc.
So I just don't see the lease as being particularly good for me or people like me. Seems to me that for me and people like me buying a used car makes more sense.
And for the fun of it, I ran the numbers via my credit union. I can get a 15k used car loan, 2.24% interest, 72 months. That's only $223 per month. One grand of interest paid over those 6 years.
So, what am I missing or not thinking of when it comes to the wonders of leasing?
In reply to foxtrapper:
I did a Volt lease. Mine wasn't spiffy when I returned it, but it was pretty clean. I had a 2 year, 12k a year lease. It was advertised on the Chevy website in September 2012 for $250/month. I think it was $2400 down. The assumptions were for a base car, with no options or extra cost paint. The first dealership I went to let me test drive the car, worked the numbers, and told me $480 a month and $4000 down. I had them look at the Chevy site, and they told me their car had leather and nav.
I did not sign that deal. The deal I signed was for a car with leather for about twenty a month more than advertised, with leather and $600 down.
Try more dealers.
Of course, 12k a year was perfect for me. I took out my lease on a holiday, and two years later, they were closed on that holiday. The extra trip to the dealer meant I was over my lease by six miles. I didn't do much of anything to drive or not drive the car to hit the milage numbers. In all honesty, the lease return was intimidating, but in the end, I received my security deposit, minus six miles of overage. The tires were a little thin, and there was a hair thin scratch that was bigger than the wear square on the roof, but none of that mattered.
All of that said, if 15k is the lower limit of your miles, I think you should look at an inexpensive used Volt.
One, the battery life may be quite used up at the end of a 5 year loan on what's already a 3 year old car, so you have to factor that into the "value" of what you "own" after your conventional financing is up. If you have to replace the car at the end of those 5 years (because it's now 8 years old and at the end of it's battery warranty) or spend a bunch of money at the end of those 5 years to keep it going, then you're really no better off than "renting" every 3 years, since your total outlay mothly forever is the same or more.
Any $15k Volt is going to be a high mileage early model, with less life left in it, and an obsolete feature set (like not having as much range as the newer ones, not having features like Hold mode that really make the car more useable for long distance driving and even around town driving), more color choices, etc. So you're looking at wanting the '13-15 versions in order to get the better driving car with lower miles to last longer after the payments are up. But those payments WILL be higher because the cars aren't $15k. They are $17-20k So you're back up to $300 a month and you'll only have a year or two without payments before you have to do it again. And in 5 years, we might have 200-300 mile range EVs with quick charging available and youd want to be in one of those rather than a car that has an obsolete charging system that can't be quick charged (and is almost out of battery life anyhow).
Leasing a new, high tech, potentially obsolete and/or troublesome to repair car is MUCH more attractive than buying a cheap, used version of it that you may actually end up paying more for and having to start making payments on another one at the end of your payments on this one in 5 years... It's not an old Miata that you can tinker with in your driveway to keep it running for decades.
calteg wrote:camaroz1985 wrote: I bought mine last year and have about 14k miles on it. It has been a great car. I have a 60 mile round trip commute, and get 35-42 miles on a charge in the winter and 45-53 miles in the summer.If I'm reading that right, you have to charge it at work in order to be able to make it back home?
No, I can't charge at work so I use a little bit of gas every day. The beauty of the Volt is you never "need" to charge. When the battery runs out you just keep driving.
Are these still pretty heavy on dealer lots? Are the initial buy-in lease deals still readily available? I don't see the big Marketing push around these anymore, so not sure how open they are to offering such great lease deals.
This seems so GRM but not GRM at the same time (leasing a new car?!), I keep running through it in my head but find it hard to see how this wouldn't make sense.
The Volt has an 8yr 100,000 mile battery warranty so even the oldest Volts are still covered for some time battery wise?
I live in San Diego so I might get summer range out of a Volt for most of the year. That being said our Freeways also move at 70-80mph when traffic is moving
I've seen a bunch of push to sell/lease remaining 2014/2015 models because they know the improved 2016 model is coming.
Jaynen wrote: The Volt has an 8yr 100,000 mile battery warranty so even the oldest Volts are still covered for some time battery wise?
yeah, they'd be covered for teh duration of your 5 year loan if you bought a 2011 now. My point being that if you buy a now 3 year old Volt on a 5 year note, you'll be out of battery warranty when the payments are up, so you'd most likely have to buy another one at that point anyhow. So maing payments for 5 years, then getting a replacement car and making payments for another 5 years, is really no different than making payments for 3 years and then getting another car. Either way, you're constantly budgeting for payments.
CobraSpdRH wrote: I don't see the big Marketing push around these anymore, so not sure how open they are to offering such great lease deals.
That's the problem, there has been no "big marketing push" on Volts EVER, so a lot of people don't even know they are still available or even exist, or what the features are or even how they work. And if you go to a dealership, they tend to steer you away from Volts and into Cruzes or malibus that they understand.
So since most new car gas engines are only warrantied for 50-60k with the occasional outlier at 100k, why do they bother to last 200, 300, 400k?
Put another way, why does anyone think the battery is going to fail after 5 years? The Volt has a very conservatively managed, liquid cooled pack. In all likelihood it's going to be fine.
Vigo wrote: So since most new car gas engines are only warrantied for 50-60k with the occasional outlier at 100k, why do they bother to last 200, 300, 400k? Put another way, why does anyone think the battery is going to fail after 5 years? The Volt has a very conservatively managed, liquid cooled pack. In all likelihood it's going to be fine.
You can tinker on regular cars yourself. The Volt is going to be MUCH harder to work on and find parts for to GET to 200-300k miles. And unlike current gas cars, it'll be obsolete much faster.
Vigo wrote: Put another way, why does anyone think the battery is going to fail after 5 years? The Volt has a very conservatively managed, liquid cooled pack. In all likelihood it's going to be fine.
Completely agree.
I can say that any deterioration of the pack in my '11 was outside of my ability to test accurately. Electric range was the same @ 36k miles (~27k EV IIRC) as new. Leaf owners in the southwest should be so lucky.
GM has been talking about a 15 year usable life for the pack in the early cars. I think it's aging better than they expected.
Chris_V wrote: When doing this and driving down the highway, the gas engine will not be driving the wheels for anything, as there is enough charge in the batteries to do acceleration runs and climb hills.
That's not how it works. Under low load conditions when in hold mode or with the battery depleted the car will clutch in the engine because it's more efficient to do so. Under really high demand, the engine is decoupled and permitted to wail away at whatever RPM is necessary. Even then, under heavy load it gradually loses the race since the ICE develops approximately 1/2 what the EV system can draw. Do this long enough (climbing a huge mountain pass at 75mph with the battery depleted) and eventually you get a reduced propulsion message and the car slows down.
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