Learning Megasquirt/tuning by jumping in headfirst with a MSPNP, am I crazy?

For as long as I've been wrenching, one thing I have always wanted to learn more about is tuning and engine management. It seems like factory engine management quickly becomes a bottleneck on older fuel-injected vehicles. Megasquirt has always interested me, but the difficulty of assembling a board properly is intimidating. One solution to this is the Megasquirt PNP setup. Obviously more expensive than putting it together yourself, but for someone electronics-shy like me it's a great option, and still much cheaper than many other standalone systems. Plus it's available for a number of vehicles on my list for potential next projects.

My question is, would I be crazy to just take the plunge and invest in a MSPNP setup to learn the finer points of engine management and how to tune? It seems like I could go pretty damn far with a MSPNP, a base map and a registered copy of TunerStudio. I'm the kind of person who learns best when I can get my hands on things and start fooling around...that said, I'm not sure if I would quickly be in way over my head.

So is it a stupid idea to just buy a MSPNP and go nuts? Has anyone else had success with the trial-by-fire method of running Megasquirt on a project car?

If you want it, you will do fine.

I soldered my own MSII together. If you aren't a good solderer, you ~will~ be. Get a good solder pencil, take your time. I have tips on how to do quality soldering - I taught high school Electronics for 6 years; a decent high school student can put this together IF you take your time, FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS, and check your work. It's not that hard. I took my sweet time, testing as I went, and it was maybe 10 hours.

I did MSII on my Locost 7, running a 4AGE with GSXR600 ITB's, Ford EDIS, and Honda Accord injectors. I've run through Speed-Density and ended up at Alpha-N. You can do this.

Then I did a friend's shop's customer's Myers Manx with MSI which was not very well sorted out at all. I had amazing help from DIY Auto Tune in troubleshooting the board (they are the best), and we ended up buying another MSI from DIY for the customer, and I kept his MSI as "payment" for the help. I got it running and have put ~IT~ on my Locost, with the MSII earmarked for a tunnel-rammed small block Chevy.

You can do this.

I pushed the easy button and picked up a pre-built generic MSII for my project. When it comes to electronics and automotive engine controls I have no fear.... but I don't know jack E36 M3 about tuning.

Getting the MSII up and running was a breeze. Base tuning was fairly simple, but fine tuning does take some time.

I have had to nuke the MS configuration several times and start over fresh as my understanding evolved. Although nuking the system isn't necessary, sometimes it helps to start with a clean slate.

Anyway, after four years of playing, I'm still learning. MS is like one of the best toys I have ever fooled with.

I've been pondering the same thing. I have a '00 BP-4W in my garage that I was planning on bumping the compression up in and putting a header, some cams and port work to before putting in my '90 Miata, but I don't think the '90 ECU will handle that, so MSPNP seems the right route to go.

Been contemplating getting into this myself with the Daytona. The 351w is not running right with the factory ECU after being bored and stroked by the previous owner. I also would like to run a COP or EDIS So I was thinking some ITB's with MS would make for a little better visual package and hopefully better running in the end.

Dont ponder it, go for it!

Even building your own is easy, you just need some patience and a few special tools. The only thing you cant get on ebay or amazon is the patience. :^) A Pro soldering station, a fan to blow the toxic smoke away from you, a Solder sucker (spring loaded), Some small solder wick, a desk magnifier/light, a decent DVOM, a JimStim kit with the power supply (dont mess with batteries on the bench), Hot Glue Gun, advanced MS'ers will want a dual trace scope like a DS203 or one of the sound card kits. A bench (a door and some saw horses) and an old towel to work on (parts dont bounce off it when dropped). Dont try to build it in one sitting, when you get tired STOP. Print out the schematics and highlite the parts you have installed, as you install them. Print or draw any mod circuits and do the same. Plan mods in advance. Lay out parts bags in order so its easy to find the next part you need (dont dump out the bags) one part at a time. Cover your work area with an old sheet to keep the cats and kids from screwing with your stuff.

I prefer the MS2 3.0 board because it has the space to custom build any extra circuits. And you can leave off what you dont need for more space. Leave out the LEDs and you can put a DB15 there in the end plate for extra wires if you run out. If you use it, run your CANBus out on a 3.5mm stereo headphone jack in the end plate also. I would recommend doing a MS2 PNP to give you room to grow or move to another vehicle, make a pigtail to go to the ECU plug from an MS2 from an old OEM ECU if DIY doesnt sell a plug.

Keep in mind the newer vehicles are not as friendly to interface with, Security modules, CanBus dashes, Cruise control, Fly by Wire Throttle, etc. A pre OBDII car is the best candidate, I have even passed emissions on them with a MS2 and Tuner Studio running on a lap top in the Passenger seat.

Speaking of space to build one you need a bench you can spread out on and not have to put away until you are done.

Plan ahead take your time and have fun.

So, something I've been wondering for my engine swap, do I buy the MSPNP9093 because it matches my chassis year?

In reply to NickD:

You will want to buy the one that matches the engine wiring harness you are using.

NickD wrote: So, something I've been wondering for my engine swap, do I buy the MSPNP9093 because it matches my chassis year?

You mean a MSPNP2-MM9093 ?

Is it currently running on a OEM pcm that matches that chassis? Yes Or you can use a DIYBOB Breakout Adapter – Nippon Denso 76 pin to wire in a MS2

If you are going to keep the MS in that car (and not mod it up) do the PNP.

bentwrench wrote:

NickD wrote: So, something I've been wondering for my engine swap, do I buy the MSPNP9093 because it matches my chassis year?

You mean a MSPNP2-MM9093 ? Is it currently running on a OEM pcm that matches that chassis? Yes Or you can use a DIYBOB Breakout Adapter – Nippon Denso 76 pin to wire in a MS2 If you are going to keep the MS in that car do the PNP.

Engine isn't even in the car yet. On a stand waiting a rebuild. Plan was to put the later '01-'05 pistons in it (more compression) and a BP-5A cam and then use the FM 1.8L swap kit to put it in and run it off the stock '90 ECU and harness. But then got wondering how happy the 1.6L ECU would be trying to run such a setup and started looking at MegaSquirt.

When I switched from MSII to MSI on the Lethal Locost, I had a dickens of time tuning it.

Eventually figured out that the pin that tells the EDIS what to do got moved, so I was running 10° no matter what I did.

Since I was doing this at night, the bowel-emptying backfires lit up the lane beside me with a satisfying fireball.

I think you are on the right path as long as you dont want to add low impedance injectors or a lot of mods.

A MSPNP2-MM9093 will serve you nicely.

If you want to go whole hog get the MSPNPPRO-MM9093, I found the ability to record without a laptop along was hugely beneficial. Sequential Peak and Hold drivers will let you run any properly sized injector. And more. (Nothing worse than the laptop flying around in the car and breaking the USB socket!)

OH! USB use the DIY adapter for USB to RS232 serial as any cord at all on the USB can cause glitches from noise.

Dont forget to add a wide band O2 for your tuning pleasure

I presume you intend to eventually take the car to a proper dyno tuning session? In the end, the only way to get maximum efficiency and power is to have a full timing sweep and final dialing-in of the AFR at both part throttle and WOT by a pro. This is also insurance against overlooking something that could trash your engine. Just a thought...

WildScotsRacing wrote: I presume you intend to eventually take the car to a proper dyno tuning session? In the end, the only way to get maximum efficiency and power is to have a full timing sweep and final dialing-in of the AFR at both part throttle and WOT by a pro. This is also insurance against overlooking something that could trash your engine. Just a thought...

Yeah, that would be the intent. Although it sounds like VE Analyze sure can get you close.

VE Analyze will get you whatever is set in your AFR table.

Spark advance is only tricky if you are messing with boost or trimming for part throttle mileage.

Dyno tuning is only really needed to hit the illegal cells in the tables.

As an early adopter from back in the MS-I days, I say go for it. Particularly if you're using a chassis and engine that were already set up for EFI. The system is much better refined than it was back when I converted my CJ-7 from carbs, and it wasn't overly difficult then either. The community knowledge base is exponentially larger than it used to be, and the MS-II, MS-III, and PnP systems are much more powerful and capable. And having fuel maps available? Best thing ever!!!! Developing a map from a blank sheet is not easy, particularly cold idle.

I'll be going with a PnP in my MR2 build, mainly because I have a line on a good deal for one with the appropriate connector, and it's already generations ahead of the factory ECU. Though I really wish the 'classic' systems would ditch the DB-25 connector already, hate those damn connectors. If only I could get a full feature MS-III with a Nippon-Denso connector.

Biggest piece of advice I can give you is learn how to do proper crimped wiring connectors. The 'ole "twist and tape" method will just leave you hating life while you're stranded somewhere. Delphi makes some great stuff, which is what most people call the "GM Weatherpack", but you can't go wrong sourcing the same as OEM either.

WildScotsRacing wrote: I presume you intend to eventually take the car to a proper dyno tuning session? In the end, the only way to get maximum efficiency and power is to have a full timing sweep and final dialing-in of the AFR at both part throttle and WOT by a pro. This is also insurance against overlooking something that could trash your engine. Just a thought...

You don't need a pro, tuning a car engine really isn't that hard if you've got a decent starting map to go from and have done your research on how tuning works. The first few times it's useful to have a buddy around who's done it before, but there's no rocket science there.

You don't need a dyno to tune fuel, especially with an MS2 or MS3. VE Analyze Live makes tuning fuel on the street very very easy.

You do need a dyno to tune spark properly, because you want to find MBT and that requires repeatable runs where you can compare one to another to figure out where you are on an advance vs torque curve.

hhaase wrote: Biggest piece of advice I can give you is learn how to do proper crimped wiring connectors.

Yes, and the key to doing proper crimped wiring connectors is to buy a proper crimping tool. $20 crimpers are junk.

Or solder and shrink wrap wires.....

bentwrench wrote: Or solder and shrink wrap wires.....

Quality crimping is generally considered superior in a car's wiring harness because soldering makes the wires more brittle and susceptible to damage from vibration. The factory wiring harness is all crimped for a reason.