Learnt me: volvo s60r

Or... what to look for, how bad are they, and why it wouldn't be good for autocross. 
saw one in town today. Red and made burbles and cracks. Sounded like a v8. 

Not sure if that title is the result of autocorrect or just an inspired misspelling, but either way, it's a win. Though "red and made burbles and cracks" makes me nervous.

Lol. A naughty attempt at humor. Apologies if that was rude to anyone. 

Thread did not deliver. 1 out of 5, would not recommend. 

In reply to Shadeux :

Lol. Anything to contribute would be a start. 
 

I'll start with my obsessive research I've made in the last few moments shows it's a 5cyl turbo. Awd. Better 6spd than the early fwd 5spd. 

Was it the title? Sorry if I offended folks. 

No V8 in the S60 obviously. My friend had one, ended up buying it to part it out. Another friend has one as a lemons car, which has had some issues. Both were FWD 5 speeds. My sibling also had a V50 AWD T5 wagon with the 6 speed, which was a very fun car but quite problematic. I also have had an 850 with an earlier NA version of the 5cyl whiteblock.

Honestly, stay away from the AWD systems on P1 / P2 Volvos. They are haldex systems, and add a significant set of problems for little benefit (compared to a Subaru or Audi AWD system). Seriously, that V50 had new fluid, a new pump, and the AWD still didn't work -- next up was going to be the control unit or the coupling inside the transaxle. Neither the fluid nor the pump is designed to be serviceable, and the usual path of failure is clutch matter contaminated fluid clogs filter / leaks out, pump runs dry, shorts itself, takes out control unit. And there's no drain plug to change the fluid, you have to pull the pump (which requires detaching the driveshaft and removing the flange from the diff). Seriously, they really were that dumb. Not sure who to blame more: Haldex for making such a E36 M3ty AWD system in the first place, or whichever Volvo engineer signed off on the packaging. Go look up videos of people doing Haldex services on some P2 chassis Volvos and see how much fun they're having -- it's something of a rite of passage for buying an AWD P2 or P1 Volvo...

The whiteblock 5 cylinder is definitely a good engine, possibly a great one. It has a timing belt, which isn't the easiest to replace being transverse mounted (and it's an interference engine so it does have to be done). The NA ones are not really worth owning, they have a PCV system under the intake that is prone to failure (which causes a lean condition and burns a valve), and don't make enough power despite requiring premium. The whiteblocks do not like being overheated, being fully aluminum they are prone to cracking the block / warping heads. Be sure to make sure the plastic quick connect fittings are firmly latched on, one of these connections on the heater core took out the LeMons S60. The lines to the oil cooler go back into the oil pan, which can be a source of low oil pressure -- the V50 developed a low oil pressure issue which may have been related to this (there was a troubleshooting DIY, so apparently not as rare of an issue as I'd like).

In the S60 there are multiple versions of the I5 whiteblock, both turbo and NA ranging from 2.3-2.5 liters, with varying degrees of variable cam timing. Fortunately they have a very nice numbering scheme, and Wikipedia has a nice breakdown of each variation. The turbos are K04s, most commonly a K04-16T. Some years of the S60R have a K24-7400. Some of the displacements are more stout than others, but anything over 400hp gets really sketchy with the cylinder liners from what I understand -- the really high horsepower builds all require sleeving. The engine management is a Bosch system with chip tuning commonly available.

The manual transmissions use a dual mass flywheel, which can be problematic. The slave cylinder is inside the bellhousing. A single mass flywheel from the 850R can be used, but good luck finding one. The manuals are all in the same family of gearboxes, so there has been some exploration of swapping to get better gearing (the 5 speed in both S60s was just fine, did not cause any of the actual issues...). The front suspension is a generic strut design, the rear is actually kind of neat as I recall. It's also a very solidly built car, so it's carrying some heft... Which doesn't make for particularly exciting dynamics. In T5 trim they're not slow, quicker than the equivalent Audi products, but only in a straight line. TBH, I would take the less powerful B6 chassis Audis over an S60 T5 for autocross. The suspension problems of the S60 aren't nearly so bad on the track (not that there's any market for track parts for an S60....).

My buddy had one. I don't remember much except he had to fix a coupler or sleeve in the transfer case to make it awd again. It was a common failure and took a whole weekend of wrenching, some custom tools and a welder to fix.  He bought the car and didn't realize the it was only front wheel drive he took a trip into the mountains.  Whoops. 

They're heavy and have a lot of issues. I doubt they autocross well. Maybe decent on a high speed flowing course? 

In reply to MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) :

There's a long list of issue with these cars.  They sound great on paper.  5CYL AWD turbo sedan and wagon (V70R)...but my research indicates they can have lots of frustrating issues.  A few 60R/V70r cars I've seen posted for sale were converted to FWD because the ring gear failed (multiple times).  

Volvo did make an S80 sedan with a Yamaha developed V8 that makes really good noise w/out a muffler. 

Counterpoint: The FCPeuro blog (No affiliation) has a few articles you can read.  This one landed in my email recently.

Why The Volvo V70R Is A Better Performance Car Project Than A BMW E46 M3

Randy Pobst likes them, so that should be enough endorsement. 

We have owned a 6 speed auto 2007 V70R that besides an electrical issue caused by the PO trying to install a 3rd row seat has been very reliable for 70k (at 160 now).  The radiator cooling fan would turn on late and run too long and ther HVAC was wonky. That issue flummoxed a really good indy for a couple days (that I wasn't asked to pay for) but was solved by a young whipper snapper Indy at a different shop in 30 minutes.

I got rid of the active dampers and IPD lowering springs (chopped off the solenoids packaged them and plugged them all back in so no codes) and replaced them with Bilstein B8  and put the OEM springs back on. It completely transformed the feel of the car into a very Volvo feeling light truckish wagon.  

replaced the cooked coil on plugs loom.

replaced all the consumable and soft suspension bits

The timing belt is fairly really easy to change- there is a flap in passenger the fender that gives good access.

That has been it besides pads oil bulbs and filters.  It is rock solid and hauls ass with a bunch of stuff in the back and goes around corners better than any SUV I have ever driven.

The Haldex system (3rd rev I think) works great in rain and snow.

Te Brembos are awesome!

That said-  The steering braking and throttle inputs are disconnected, It makes lots of grunt but it is laggy even if it is well managed, and the aggressive negative rear suspension camber curve does not play well with the positive camber curve of the short A arm mac strut set up in the front.   It's a cruiser to its fat cushy seat core.  I think my good luck would evaporate rapidly if I tried to make it more that a 7/10s GT- the haldex would blow up, the angle gear would die, tires would chunk, removing suspension travel would make it uninhabitable and the lack of compliance would ruin the little bit of decent handling it has on real roads and mowar boost would likely crack a liner or two. 

Hoondavan said:

In reply to MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) :

Volvo did make an S80 sedan with a Yamaha developed V8 that makes really good noise w/out a muffler. 

I can't remember, does the v8 have the same bolt pattern as the whiteblock? 

I have experience with exactly one S60.  It was an '02 that I bought for my with with around 60k miles on it and a bad automatic transmission.  I rebuilt the transmission and she drove it for around 150k miles before we retired it.

It was, well, OK.  I really liked the way it drove.  I even used it for on track instruction a time or two.  The chassis was decently balanced and well controlled.  The AWD system on ours worked really well and as trouble free.  The brakes would overheat with spirited driving but only after doing stuff that no sane person would do on a public road.  My main issue with it was that a lot of stupid stuff broke.  Things like door handles and center consol covers were forever falling off.  I changed the coils out at one point because a couple had died but once a car gets over 100 some odd thousand miles that's to be expected. 

Best car I ever had.  It needs some work every now and then but I started ownership at 184k miles and I'm at 259k miles now.  That is around the age where you gotta start doing the deeper maintenance, like struts and mounts (about $1000/axle) and suspension bushings and who knows what.  PCV system every 80-90k or so, easiest to coincide it with timing belt and water pump service.  That sort of thing.

It is not an autocross car.  It's too big and heavy for that.  It's a luxury tourer.  I might autocross mine, but I am also full of bad ideas.

The AWD is magic, especially with the active chassis control.  It defies some laws of physics.  I do have an '06, which is the first year for the precharge-type Haldex, which reacts much more quickly to computer commands than the earlier ones.  If it breaks traction, it is either all four wheels, or the rear wheels when accelerating in a turn from a stop, but only in inclement weather.  

A lot of the Haldex issues are because Volvo does not specify a fluid change interval.  The fluid and filter should be changed every 20k.  Failure to do this causes the DEM to have to drive the pump harder and harder to generate desired clutch pressure, resulting in burning out the pump motor or the DEM, or both.  A new DEM is $1500, a company in Canada rebuilds them for about $700.

Get used to the $1500 number, that is how much everything costs.  Catalyst is $1500.  Angle gear is $1500.  Front axles, if you have a six speed auto, are $750 (half of $1500) because the only place to get one is Volvo.  Torque converter is $1500, transmission valvebody is $1500...

You could get a manual, but a manual trans in a 4000lb car that has somewhat odd throttle response and no real audible indication of engine speed seems like a bad trip to me.  If you want a manual trans, get an Evo, you'll be much happier overall.

They aren't cheap anymore.  I paid $3800 for mine in late 2017.  I couldn't replace it for $10k now.  You can GET cheaper ones, but they are usually all hacked with exhausts or tunes or eliminating the active struts for fixed dampers (it's part of the charm: you can make it cushy like a LeSabre or rattle your teeth out stiff or have a middle ground where each corner is on automatic) or they don't come with any service records.  Like any high end European car, you are buying the previous owner's habits, and this was Volvo's top vehicle at the time.

Autocross doesn't work.  Too big, heavy, and poor turning circle.  One of mine ate the clutch at an autox, big dollars, even when your getting parts at dealer cost (it helps to be the dealer).  Great touring car, stay away from the body package if possible, attracts the cops.  Got a ticket for 5 over the limit in Darth Volvo, a black sedan with the full body kit.  Never got noticed in the silver sedan, just another grey Volvo with an old guy behind the wheel.  Wish I kept one of them for driving up and down the East Coast.  

Oh yeah, the turning circle.  No hyperbole, I have driven crew cab pickups with a tighter turning radius.  Polar opposite of a 740/940.

The steering is about as fast/slow as an average car, but after one turn of lock, that is all you get.  They even put metal grind-pads on the plastic fender liners for the tires to rub against.  The first time I tried to turn out of a driveway I had a Moment, as I found myself having to overshoot the right lane, the left lane, and have to go partway into oncoming traffic.  You get used to it.

On the topic of compromises made to cram large things in small spaces, such as 8" wide wheels in a car with a transverse five cylinder, the huge brakes require wheels with a lot of spoke offset, which is why the Pegasus wheels look the way they do.  The spokes are about a finger's thickness.  Almost all aftermarket wheels do not fit.  Oddly enough, Focus RS (final gen) wheels fit, and 18" Pegasus wheels fit over the FoRS brakes, which are 350mm Brembos vs. the 330mm Brembos on the Volvo.

This is a possible future upgrade path for me.  I've found it very easy to overheat the brakes to uselessness.

iansane said:

Hoondavan said:

In reply to MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) :

Volvo did make an S80 sedan with a Yamaha developed V8 that makes really good noise w/out a muffler. 

I can't remember, does the v8 have the same bolt pattern as the whiteblock? 

No clue.  An S80 V8 with a manual trans sounds great...but I imagine packing would be a real challenge, unless you leave it FWD.  

Just an aside, mine weighs 4005 pounds with a half tank of fuel and 210 pounds of Pete.  This being the second series car with the TF80 automatic and uprated angle gear and rear diff.

It's a bigun'.  Small in dimension compared to some new cars, very similar to a new Civic hatch, but there is a LOT of drivetrain in it.  To be honest, I am all the more impressed at how light on its feet it can feel at speed, but a nimble autocrosser it is not.  At least it explains how I can cook the brakes to uselessness in about a mile of country road.

(also, for the record, 14.5 at 97.  And IATs were 135F most of the way down the track, boy howdy the intercooler does suck.  No tirespin at all on a prepped track, despite still being front wheel drive for the time being)