Lemons cars. Decisions, decisions

Some autocross buddies asked if I wanted to be on a Lemons team. Like that's even a question.

Thing is, we haven't even started and already have decisions to make. We have two cars available, a Saturn SC2 and a Volvo 850. I know nada for either one, but have seen the Saturn pop up in a few threads on the subject. What do y'all think?

We're not looking to win, just turn in a solid effort. We're thinking make the thing as reliable as possible, work on brakes, cooling, wheel bearings, ball joints - that type stuff. None of us have done it before, and not really a lot of track experience on the team. So we're out to have max fun for min dough.

So the car decision is first, but welcome any other advice from you guys who have done this.

Thanks, and wish us luck!

I ran the 24 hours of Nelson Ledges in a Saturn SL. It wasn't super quick (obviously), but it could easily make it the whole race on one set of tires and brakes and was easy on fuel. We were able to keep it going without major incident the whole race and we placed 8th our of ~80-90 cars, IIRC. It was a ton of fun as an entry-level car.

I would definitely recommend the Saturn based on that experience. I think it will be far cheaper on consumables and probably more reliable. Parts are also likely cheaper and easier to get when something breaks in the middle of a race. If you're looking for max fun for the money, that's what I'd do.

On the topic of other advice, I'd say it's a really good idea to volunteer at a Lemons or ChumpCar race before driving in one. It'll give you a much better idea of what it takes to have a successful event and you can figure out how tech inspection works, talk to other teams, etc, without the pressure of racing.

Also, I'd really recommend planning out your whole build. Especially the finances and who pays for what, etc. I think it would be very difficult to prep a car for less than $4-5k, and many builds are near $10k if you're buying all new safety equipment, tires, brakes, paying for a roll cage, etc. Be aware that every event could easily cost $2000 or more if you need to tow any distance (race car fuel, truck fuel, tires, brakes, entry fees, etc). Also, know that your safety equipment won't be cheap. If you need to buy everything and want to get it new, you could be spending $500+ easily, much more if you want really good equipment and a Hans device or similar.

As a point of reference, I've been building my own ChumpCar recently and I have estimate that it will cost me ~$4000 to build the car, and that's with me building the cage entirely by myself, mostly using safety equipment I already own (harnesses, net, seat, etc) and generally doing it on a shoe-string budget. Our first event will be a 14 hour enduro and I am expecting the total cost for the event to be ~$2500. So yeah, while it's cheaper than most road racing, it's still pretty expensive compared to most fun weekend hobbies.

Anyway, have fun and keep us posted on the progress!

The Saturn, no question about it at all. Keep an eye on the oil level!

Saturn … think of the day-to-day maint. for a Volvo … then think of the same thing for a Saturn

the Volvo would certainly have the "unique" factor in spades … but you also want to finish the race

Saturn parts can be had at any parts store/JY

Around our neck of the woods, Volvos are very common at LeMons races. There are several teams that run them, with many of them being 850s. They are fast, really fast. From what I've seen, they're also fairly reliable. We have some Saturns, but I don't recall them being anything special. I'd hands down vote for the Volvo. One team has an older Volvo, I believe it started life as a 242. It's heavily modified, including a 302 under hood. It's scary stupid fast. It also has one of the loudest and sexiest exhaust sounds you'll hear at a LeMons race. Which is a good thing, because it'll come up on you so fast that you'll at least be able to hear it coming if you don't see it in your mirrors.

Agree with Klayfish. Volvos can be fast and are reliable. A number of them do run LeMons with plenty of success.

Saturns have had a few close shots at overall win, but I don't think any has nailed it yet. They're slightly below average in DOMINATION Factor (I'm going to keep linking that in every LeMons thread.) Volvo 700s are slightly above average, and Volvo 240s are the overall best.

I don't know about the 800 series in particular, but Volvo engines that could take a turbo are still super reliable when boosted. Many LeMons Volvos are boosted, and even the naturally aspirated ones turn out lap after lap after lap after lap... as long as you don't overrev them. The Saturn has little headroom for extra power. Both cars have equally small aftermarket support, but the Volvo tuning community is better documented.

I also have a race-ready and caged Ford Escort for sale. Fully LeMons legal, fairly rusty. With a little tweaking and some good drivers, it's a solid contender for Class B. It's in Illinois. $1000 takes it. If you keep the Robo Nixon theme, Judge Phil promises a residual value of $27.

All I know is that there is one of each at my house: a '94 Saturn SL2 and a '93 Volvo 850.

The Volvo runs.

what year is the escort? the ones with the bp 1.8 motor are all sorts of fun

I would be more in favor of a Volvo 240 or 740, but an 850 is from an era of much lower reliability for Volvo, IMO, and it lacks the benefit of RWD to balance that front tire wear. I my experience 850's munch front tires like crazy. If you can't get the tires to last, then good luck trying to run an endurance race on any kind of reasonable budget.

Speaking of the domination factor - I don't' see any data on the Volvo 850, while the 7-series and 2-series cars are ranked pretty well.

As another data point: http://jalopnik.com/5450420/results-of-the-lemons-torture-test-volvo-alfa-saturn-the-most-reliable-500-beaters

Maybe you guys should sell both cars and buy a 240?

First thing to do is think about your goals. Do you want to win overall, or win one of the awesome awards like IOE, or do you just want to have some track time with your friends and a good time, or something else? All of those will best be done with a different car, and two of those three will not be accomplished with the two cars you mentioned.

Second thing to do is to go to a race. Even if you are just there spectating, watch what happens during BS judging and tech, look at where people fail, where they have good ideas, and keep your ears open to what the tech inspectors and judges are saying, and your eyes open to the cars, and you'll learn lots. If you can, it is even better to join up with an established team to drive with them for a race, and see how it really is on track and in the race. We have had a few people do this with our team, all left the weekend with different goals and plans than when they arrived, thanks to the experience.

Your basic idea of car prep is right on. Concentrate on car prep in this order:
1. Make it pass tech
2. Make it reliable
3. Theme and fun
4. Make it fast(er), as this one often screws up the three above it, especially 2.

It is a lot more fun turning some slow(er) laps reliably all race than to thrash working at the track in the dirt on your blowed-up rocketship of a car.

Another vote for Saturn.

At the last Lemons race in NH, our garage neighbors were running a volvo 850. It was slow, chewed front tires fast, but was relatively reliable. I think it was there first effort, so I don't know how much of their bad performance was due to their inexperience. I was with the team running the pair of Peugeot 405, and they were surprizingly much faster than those Volvo's, and both of them finished. So you can make anything work.

captdownshift wrote: what year is the escort? the ones with the bp 1.8 motor are all sorts of fun

It's a '91 Escort (BG chassis), but with a swapped 2.0-liter DOHC engine from a ZX2. It's pretty damn quick. Not as smooth as the BP engines, but torquier.

fanfoy wrote: Another vote for Saturn. At the last Lemons race in NH, our garage neighbors were running a volvo 850. It was slow, chewed front tires fast, but was relatively reliable. I think it was there first effort, so I don't know how much of their bad performance was due to their inexperience. I was with the team running the pair of Peugeot 405, and they were surprizingly much faster than those Volvo's, and both of them finished. So you can make anything work.

Oh man. Those Peugeots are hand grenades. I know the judges are always uncertain where to class them. If they last, they're fast as hell and strong contenders for overall win. If they don't, it's usually because all the rods went flying—sometimes into somebody else's windshield.

Yup, I was with those rod throwing guys. They baffled the pan for the last race, and it seems to work. I wouldn't call those cars fast. We were getting pass by almost everything in the straights, only to catch them up under braking (GREAT brakes) and then getting stuck behind them in the bends. Sorta frustrating. Great fuel consumption, they could easily do 4 hr stints between fuel stops. The guys were just great at working with their cars strengths.

Any half-decent car can work in Lemons, so I'd just go with the one with the cheapest running costs.

Saturn, use heavy oil. They're one of the best crapcan racers. http://jalopnik.com/5450420/results-of-the-lemons-torture-test-volvo-alfa-saturn-the-most-reliable-500-beaters

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Saturn, use heavy oil. They're one of the best crapcan racers. http://jalopnik.com/5450420/results-of-the-lemons-torture-test-volvo-alfa-saturn-the-most-reliable-500-beaters

That torture test 4 years old now, which is why Eric Rood at Hooniverse put together a fresh analysis using a bigger data set. Saturns haven't done as well in more recent seasons.

In reply to Alan Cesar:

Links? I suppose in the last 4 years the beater Saturn fleet has probably gotten smaller, rustier, and more neglected.

In reply to Kenny_McCormic:

It's what I keep posting to in these LeMons threads.
Here's the intro explaining the methods and the honorable mentions. His spreadsheet is available at this link, too, if you want to crunch the numbers yourself:
http://hooniverse.com/2013/12/09/lemons-torture-test-revisited-a-2013-update-74-71/

There's a bunch of posts in between, including this one where Saturns appear: http://hooniverse.com/2013/12/13/lemons-torture-test-revisited-a-2013-update-50-41/

And the top 10, including the full ranked list:
http://hooniverse.com/2013/12/19/lemons-torture-test-revisited-a-2013-update-top-10/

Thanks a TON guys. This is great info.

Sonic, the goals are just to get out there, have fun and get some relatively cheap track time with some buddies. If we get thorough a couple of events with the car maybe we'll aim a little higher.

JohnyHachi6 wrote: I would be more in favor of a Volvo 240 or 740, but an 850 is from an era of much lower reliability for Volvo, IMO, and it lacks the benefit of RWD to balance that front tire wear.

Yeah, when I heard Volvo, I was all over it, assuming it was right wheel drive. But when I googled it, I discovered otherwise. If it was an older one, I'd be voting in that direction. As it is, the Saturn looks to be a good piece for what we're trying to do.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/the-mighty-integra-1500-your-lechumpchallengedd-chariot-awaits/76320/page1/

I would suggest Alan's Escort, having never seen it. I had a really good battle with the Mshiny happy people in their ZX2. Surprisingly quick down the straight, light weight, good stuff. I have a Datsun 280ZX, but if I were to do it again and rwd wasn't a requirement, I'd do up a ZX2.

Of the two choices you listed, go Saturn. As said, run thick oil, maybe install an oil cooler if you have room in the budget.

If you go with the Saturn, shoot me a PM and I can put you in touch with the owner of the car I raced in at Nelson Ledges. That Saturn has been through something like 20 crapcan races and I'm sure he'll have some good advice.

Brotus7 wrote: I would suggest Alan's Escort...

Yeah, if the cage is half decent that's a real bargain.