LeMons / Chump - true cost edition

OK, as with buying the Manic Miata, the right opportunity has fallen into my lap at the wrong time, at least 2 years early.

Nephew has acquired a 1988 SAAB 900S non-turbo, 5-speed, pretty solid runner, that he picked up for $150. No idea of mileage; haven't seen the car yet. But he says it tools around just fine; he's driven it about 500 miles with no problems.

Apparently, 90% of its troubles are interior- or electrics-related, so he was thinking it would need to be gutted in order to fix it. And, of course, once it's gutted, why would you put all that stuff back if you could do something else?

He is a pretty good welder, has a welder, and has a couple hundred feet of 1.75", 0.120-wall DOM tubing in hand.

So how hard and expensive is it, exactly, to go crapcan racing?

The car is the cheapest part. All the safety and driver requirements plus travel and sustenance, entry fees, spare parts, ability to recruit extra drivers etc. really add up. But it is fun.

iceracer wrote: The car is the cheapest part. All the safety and driver requirements plus travel and sustenance, entry fees, spare parts, ability to recruit extra drivers etc. really add up. But it is fun.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I realize those costs will vary, but I was wondering what the typical successful effort costs.

Logdog and I just went through this. Basically, $500 for the car, THEN it'll cost a grand a person to enter the first race (cheapest safety package, car and driver entry fee). It ain't cheap.

DrBoost wrote: Logdog and I just went through this. Basically, $500 for the car, THEN it'll cost a grand a person to enter the first race (cheapest safety package, car and driver entry fee). It ain't cheap.

That's what I've heard pretty consistently. The cheapest I've heard of a group of friends doing it broke down to $800/driver for the first race.

Cars can be built basically cheap/free with the right resources, but the safety gear/consumables/travel/entry fees/etc. add up quick. There's some spreadsheets out there, but from a "not being dissapointed" standpoint, make sure everybody can stomach a grand for the event.

Just read this yesterday so

http://forum.chumpcar.com/index.php?/topic/2226-so-you-want-to-be-a-chump/

"Organizing a Team is expensive. Expect the complete team costs to run about $5000, or about $1000 per driver AFTER personal safety equipment (with a higher driver count). It is possible to come out a little lower, but not by much without compromising safety. Make sure your drivers know that they are NOT going to spend $500 split 4 ways. Prepare them for $1000-2000 EACH for their first ChumpCar race on a newly-built car. If you have safety gear already this may actually be as low as $700-1200/ea depending on what had to be done to the vehicle.

Organizing a Team is a pain in the ass (this cannot be emphasized enough). Expect at least half your teammates to drop out due to money or time conflicts. Expect personality conflicts. Expect spousal disapproval. Expect time crunches. Expect tow vehicle failure. Expect lack of attendance for car-work-days. If you still want to go this route, here's our advice, learned the hard way. "

Do you really want to go crapcan racing or just have a cheap race car? Sounds like the Saab could be made into a cheap autox/rallyx/trackday beater while keeping it barely street legal if that is even important. It would be a lot cheaper than trying to cage it and build it for racing + buy safety equipment + pay entry fees

Duke wrote:

iceracer wrote: The car is the cheapest part. All the safety and driver requirements plus travel and sustenance, entry fees, spare parts, ability to recruit extra drivers etc. really add up. But it is fun.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I realize those costs will vary, but I was wondering what the typical successful effort costs.

I'll second iceracer. We got a free car, and I hate to imagine how much has been dumped into it since. I doubt you'd call us "successful" either, though we had a big win at the end of last season, with two 7-hour enduro finishes. Not podium, not top 1/3. Mid pack. But we finished. In a 40-year-old Alfa.

Think $1500 for a cage, $1000 for a seat, harness, other safety equipment, $1000 for parts to get the car worthy, $700 for a couple sets of tires, $5 for paint. At our last weekend, we used about 40 gallons of mid-grade, some oil, some food, some drink, some this, some that, etc. Probably $500 worth of stuff, not counting the hotel room the sissies on the team decided they needed (the rest of us braved two Wisconsin October nights in the trailer instead). I'm not overly familiar with the cost of entry, but I know it has been in the neighborhood of $200 with 4 or 5 drivers. I'm not sure if that's just for the driver fees, or if that included the car entry too...

Its expensive. If, however, you can get 5 or 6 guys that are SOLID (not going to flake out on you after 3 weeks of wrenching and leave you with the bill), it really isn't all that bad.

Jaynen wrote: Just read this yesterday so http://forum.chumpcar.com/index.php?/topic/2226-so-you-want-to-be-a-chump/ "Organizing a Team is expensive. Expect the complete team costs to run about $5000, or about $1000 per driver AFTER personal safety equipment (with a higher driver count). It is possible to come out a little lower, but not by much without compromising safety. Make sure your drivers know that they are NOT going to spend $500 split 4 ways. Prepare them for $1000-2000 EACH for their first ChumpCar race on a newly-built car. If you have safety gear already this may actually be as low as $700-1200/ea depending on what had to be done to the vehicle. Organizing a Team is a pain in the ass (this cannot be emphasized enough). Expect at least half your teammates to drop out due to money or time conflicts. Expect personality conflicts. Expect spousal disapproval. Expect time crunches. Expect tow vehicle failure. Expect lack of attendance for car-work-days. If you still want to go this route, here's our advice, learned the hard way. " Do you really want to go crapcan racing or just have a cheap race car? Sounds like the Saab could be made into a cheap autox/rallyx/trackday beater while keeping it barely street legal if that is even important. It would be a lot cheaper than trying to cage it and build it for racing + buy safety equipment + pay entry fees

THIS first paragraph is really good advice. Whatever you do, be realistic about costs with your team-mates. Everybody should be prepared for roughly a grand, and a whole lotta work on the first swat. Do a very realistic spreadsheet (it's not hard,) and don't forget to account for consumables, including getting the car TO AND FROM the event.

As far as who kicks in for what, that's up to you as a team leader. Should you get money up front for spares? If you expect the guys on the team to contribute to the cost of building the car, then yes. You will break axles, have brake and clutch failures, etc. As an aside, you can minimize this by stressing the importance of being easy on the car. Brake and upshift early, make SURE all your guys know how to heel-toe, etc.

When it comes down to it, personally, I think it's 10X more fun than autocrossing, while being WAY cheaper per-minute, without having to eat up 10 weekends to get an hour of seat time. Not knocking autocross, just saying there's no comparison $'s/Smiles per minute. Sure, it might only be $50-$60 per event, but how many events do you have to run to get 4 hours of seat time? 60? YMMV.

Good news is, all the big stuff (safety equipment, driver gear) is a one-time cost, so when you look at the big picture, the events get cheaper and cheaper as you go. If you're fortunate enough to have 1 12-14 hour event with NO big catastrophic failures, you're ahead of the game.

Read more of that thread and be aware of the risks of people bailing out, or what happens if they dont have their share of the money etc.

I took an initial stab as part of a team once.
Even more than money (which is a big killer) our biggest killer was time and maybe even better stated, distance. Our team members were as far as two or more hours away from each other. This meant that there was going to be little or no group effort "after work" style wrenching. Instead, this meant that lots of wrenching got placed on the few and if there was group efforts to be had that meant using up lots of Saturdays and Sundays which quickly seem to be in short supply and high demand.

Be sure that your team all has aligned goals and expectations of both time and finances.

JohnRW1621 wrote: I took an initial stab as part of a team once. Even more than money (which is a big killer) our biggest killer was time and maybe even better stated, distance. Our team members were as far as two or more hours away from each other. This meant that there was going to be little or no group effort "after work" style wrenching. Instead, this meant that lots of wrenching got placed on the few and if there was group efforts to be had that meant using up lots of Saturdays and Sundays which quickly seem to be in short supply and high demand. Be sure that your team all has aligned goals and expectations of both time and finances.

So, may I ask the question that needs to be asked?

Is there a place for people like that? Meaning a "team" isn't feasible, but maybe you and a buddy can take the crap can for a spin for a few hours and not for 24-ish hours of racing over a weekend?

I ask this because this is the problem I have. I have plenty of "racing friends", but getting them altogether is impossible. Having the ones that don't work on it pay more? Sounds rather "childish" is indeed quite fair, but not always feasible.

iceracer wrote: The car is the cheapest part. All the safety and driver requirements plus travel and sustenance, entry fees, spare parts, ability to recruit extra drivers etc. really add up. But it is fun.

I actually compared crapcan to dwarf racing a few years ago and the first year it is a draw. Year 2 the dwarf car was dramatically cheaper.

Entry fees for the crapcan stuff is high!!!

Ranger50 wrote:

JohnRW1621 wrote: I took an initial stab as part of a team once. Even more than money (which is a big killer) our biggest killer was time and maybe even better stated, distance. Our team members were as far as two or more hours away from each other. This meant that there was going to be little or no group effort "after work" style wrenching. Instead, this meant that lots of wrenching got placed on the few and if there was group efforts to be had that meant using up lots of Saturdays and Sundays which quickly seem to be in short supply and high demand. Be sure that your team all has aligned goals and expectations of both time and finances.

So, may I ask the question that needs to be asked? Is there a place for people like that? Meaning a "team" isn't feasible, but maybe you and a buddy can take the crap can for a spin for a few hours and not for 24-ish hours of racing over a weekend? I ask this because this is the problem I have. I have plenty of "racing friends", but getting them altogether is impossible. Having the ones that don't work on it pay more? Sounds rather "childish" is indeed quite fair, but not always feasible.

That is kind of what I was saying. Have a beater car, take it to autocross, take it to rallycross, take it to the track. Enjoy it but maybe don't take it so far as the race team thing and all of the extra work and coordination it means.

Interesting comment on the dwarf racing is that like the legend cars? I am not sure how much they do that out here on the west coast

You can also buy a ready to go car and gear. I sold my "ready to go" malibu (that was fairly competitive - 9th out of 120+ at Summit point) for $1200.00 with spare engines / trans / rearend / brakes / wheels / tires / etc.... YOu can get the Lemons "everything legal kit" for around $400.00 for new and about $250.00 for used. This includes everything you need to be on teh race track.

Take the used car and the used safety gear( times 4), add the entry fee (about $1100.00) and you have a car that is sitting at your house ready to race. This is about 3500.00 before you even leave for the track.

Add some okay tires, maybe brake pads, oil and filter, other consumables this is about $600-$1000.00. Then you get to add gas. Gas is anywhere from $250.00 to $500.00 per weekend (just for the racecar).

Now you have to get there and back. Add $100 to $200 in gas just for teh tow rig (if you already have a trailer and truck).

Now you have to eat. If you cook out and have sammiches every meal, you can get by with about $200.00 for food and beverages for teh weekend.

Add it all up and you get: 4,650.00 on the low end and $6,000.00 on the upper end.

This is with a used car, crappy tires, and no updating necessary.

If building a car from scratch, add about $3000.00 for a decent car and about $5000.00 for a competitive car. It costs ALOT of money to be competitive in $500.00 cars. There is all sorts of money to be spent on tuning the computer / carb. Money to be spent on buying different suspenion springs, and suspension set-up. Track days arent cheap!

That is my .02$.

Also, the car choice impacts how much you spend.

This is also why we sold the Malibu and now race an RX7.

The race tires are $400.00 for 4, on the RX7 vs $750.00 for 4 on the malibu. I plan on getting 5 gph with the 7 and we got 8 gph with the malibu (or a difference of $160.00 in race car gas). Every race we are going to save $500.00 just by switching to a lighter car!

Rob R.

Again, the easiest way to make a small fortune racing cars is to start with a large fortune.

We've averaged anywhere from 700 to 1000 per person per race with a 5 person team for our LeMons efforts of varying success. We share suits, buy used equipment, eat and sleep at the track, and do most of the work ourselves, with the exception of caging a car. If you can cage a car yourself you'll save 1000-1500 off the total.

I recently did my first Chump race with a team that had an existing, decently sorted car that needed almost no work. With a 5 man effort, total cost was about $350/e, again, sleeping at the track and eating hot dogs. We finished in the top 1/3, and had only a couple very minor mechanical issues, which I consider a successful outing.

In my experience (four LeMons races, three as an official, one as a driver) Saabs never did well. They just wouldn't make it through for one reason or another.

Point is, you can still spend all that money and not get very far.

The best advice above is to buy a built/proven car if you want to do crapcan. Or at least find the best, most bulletproof car you can buy and then build it. Going crapcan racing because you found a car first is doing things the wrong way 'round.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: We've averaged anywhere from 700 to 1000 per person per race with a 5 person team for our LeMons efforts of varying success. We share suits, buy used equipment, eat and sleep at the track, and do most of the work ourselves, with the exception of caging a car. If you can cage a car yourself you'll save 1000-1500 off the total.

Odd, my Lemons experience almost EXACTLY lines up with this guy.

Do it. It will be fun. You'll learn something, and have fun with your buddies.

I still want to do it so badly! The problem for me is that all of the tracks are very far away.

Basil Exposition wrote: In my experience (four LeMons races, three as an official, one as a driver) Saabs never did well. They just wouldn't make it through for one reason or another.

Robin Banks has won overall in both Lemons and Chump with Saabs. He's also had to drag them home with failed transmissions quite a few times, too... so yeah. Mixed bag.

All that being said, you can't beat the GRM challenge. I had a car that competed and placed well enough to keep me happy for under a grand. The trip down to FL was a family vacation already.

All that being said, you can't beat the GRM challenge.

I love the Challenge for the party, but for seat time...yeah. I can go to a test and tune at the dragstrip on saturday night and an autocross on Sunday without having to drive to Gainesville.

Jaynen wrote: Just read this yesterday so http://forum.chumpcar.com/index.php?/topic/2226-so-you-want-to-be-a-chump/ "Organizing a Team is expensive. Expect the complete team costs to run about $5000, or about $1000 per driver AFTER personal safety equipment (with a higher driver count). It is possible to come out a little lower, but not by much without compromising safety. Make sure your drivers know that they are NOT going to spend $500 split 4 ways. Prepare them for $1000-2000 EACH for their first ChumpCar race on a newly-built car. If you have safety gear already this may actually be as low as $700-1200/ea depending on what had to be done to the vehicle. Organizing a Team is a pain in the ass (this cannot be emphasized enough). Expect at least half your teammates to drop out due to money or time conflicts. Expect personality conflicts. Expect spousal disapproval. Expect time crunches. Expect tow vehicle failure. Expect lack of attendance for car-work-days. If you still want to go this route, here's our advice, learned the hard way. "

Quoted for so much truth. This sounds exactly like my experience. Guys not showing up for shop night, pissed off wives, crunch time, tires on the tow trailer, etc. We bought a '94 Celica for $500, replaced the leaky oil pump and put over 1000 road miles on it before we took it to a PBIR 24 race and lasted 45 minutes. Luckily I was watching the oil pressure and got it back to the pits before the bearing failed. Everyone on the team bugged out for home except me. I stayed and watched the remaining 23.25 hours.

It took the team almost 2 years (now minus 2 of an original 5) to finish stripping our parts car, getting the spare motor rebuilt (cleaned, pistons, rings, bearings, etc.) and back in the car and sorted to take her to Sebring and have her throw a rod 3 laps into the race. We had tagged and driven her for about 250 miles with no issues and she sounded great before she went out onto the track. Our driver said she seemed a little slow coming out of a turn but instead of backing off he put his foot in it & KABOOM! Done. Other team members went and got drunk. I stayed and watched the race and the subsequent flood.

The Beetle team next to us swapped their engine assembly some point during the race in roughly 22 minutes.

So if you are going to do this, my $0.02:

1. Do it yourself and for the fun of it. Be the sole owner of the car and sell seats. If guys want to come and help wrench, fine, but you're still paying to drive.

2. Have a car that you know fairly intimately. Preferably one that you can fairly easily swap the drivetrain in.

3. Go to a race before you enter one and stay for the whole event. 24, nay even 14 hours is a long time to keep at it. It takes a village and watch how teams do it with specific roles, tasks, etc.

4. If you are doing Chumpcar and plan to build a new car, start collecting your AIV now. It takes longer than you think. Then go buy a low mileage car with a service history of oil changes.

5. Buy an already built and proven car. Your savings will be immense.

6. Plan to spend 3 to 4 times more than you expected.

How hard is it getting your chumpcar into a lemons race with their different budgeting methods?

I think the most successful teams are the "really local" ones meaning they are neighbors or all work at a shop where they can wrench on the car or some other gathering point that doesnt require 30+ minutes of driving

If you already have a car that is sorted and personal safety gear, you can probably do a race for about $500 each. If you have to build a car...$$$$

When we built the Civic, it wasn't too bad. We bought a 86 Civic SI for $300. Changed the water pump, timing belt, 6 valves, the rings and about half the bearings. Curmudgeon and I build the cage in a day for the cost of the tube. 8 wheels were free, though we did have to buy 8 tires. One of the team members came up with an Integra brake swap for $100 and we added a set of Porterfield pads that were $120. The seat and belts come out of the Abomination for the weekend. All total, we probably had $1500 in the car, maybe $1700.

That car has been to 5 races and never finished below 15th out of a field of 100+. With a light weight car, the front pads and rotors and calipers will last two races, the rears are still the ones that came from the junkyard. We could probably get three events out of the brakes, but I don't want to do a brake job at the track. The tires will run at least two events. I think the ones on the rear have been on there for three. We don't buy race anything except front pads. We burn regular gas and use Rotella oil at $12 a gallon and change it Saturday night.

My total cost to get the car to the track this year was about $800. That price included some improvements to the car. (Fuel surge tank, ECU and injectors, header) If we bumped the number of drivers up, from 4 to 6, we could have done it for about $530 each. If we didn't do any work to the car other than consumables (gas, oil, tires), we could probably get it down in to the $300-400 range. These numbers don't include sleeps and eats. I don't consider that to be part of getting the car on track.

DON'T spend money on speed. DO spend money on reliability. We did a T-Bird one year, swapped in a 351 and a 3 speed. It was the fastest thing on the track...for about 150 laps. The rest of the time we were cussing it in the pits or waiting for it to be dragged back to the pits so we could cuss it some more. That was the year we bought the Honda.

I'd say do it. It's a lot of fun. If you don't want to build a car, do an arrive and drive. There are several car owners that do them. Most of them I have seen are in the $700-$1000 range.