Lets have a discussion about brakes.

Olemiss540 said:

I personally can not justify the huge costs for 2-piece rotors when I can buy 1 piece blanks from China (rockauto) for 30 bucks each and replace them every year whether they need it or not. I would research which BBK can utilize an OE size/offset rotor that you can buy on rockauto for 30-50 bucks and start with that option 1st. 

Remembering when people were tracking Fox body Mustangs and reporting rotor life of one weekend, assuming they didn't crack before the weekend was up.

We've come a long way.

I'm going to chime in with a question since we're discussing this.

I get why good brakes work and bad ones don't, but if they're all 14" rotors and the master is applying X psi which presses a brake pad against a chunk of iron, why does it matter?  I could see how slightly different piston diameters in the caliper might increase or decrease pedal effort, but where is the big benefit to Baer or Wilwood?  Caliper rigidity?  

I fully understand that they ARE typically better brakes, but don't understand why.  I would think the important part is the coefficient of friction between the pads and rotors.  

Toyman! said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The Wilwood Kit. 

The Brembo Kit. 

The PowerStop kit. 

Thanks.

I'd discount the PowerStop ones immediately, especially if there's a parts bin upgrade with the same rotor size. There just aren't enough useful parts in there. Those are the brakes for Mustangs with lawn chairs in the trunk.

Between the Brembo and the Wilwood, I'd go Wilwood. I'd save $150 and go with the slotted option. A wide variety of pad options - you can get anything in a Wilwood pad shape in the US - along with a replaceable rotor ring and easy pad changes. For a car that is going to be 50:50 track/autox, it's going to be changing pads frequently. I know Brembo has the name but 20+ years of running and selling Wilwood kits have given me faith in their products with a couple of exceptions - and those exceptions aren't here. Street price is about $1900, so that's a useful $900 savings over the Brembo.

I am not familiar with the parts bin options available for this car, so I can't comment on those.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm going to chime in with a question since we're discussing this.

I get why good brakes work and bad ones don't, but if they're all 14" rotors and the master is applying X psi which presses a brake pad against a chunk of iron, why does it matter?  I could see how slightly different piston diameters in the caliper might increase or decrease pedal effort, but where is the big benefit to Baer or Wilwood?  Caliper rigidity?  

I fully understand that they ARE typically better brakes, but don't understand why.  I would think the important part is the coefficient of friction between the pads and rotors.  

A lot of it comes down to rotor weight/design and pad compound. What the pad is made of and what temp range it's made to run in makes a massive difference. A lighter rotor will have less mass but may not be the best heat sink. 
 

just so many things that rely on the answer if "depends"

Keith Tanner said:

 ...selling Wilwood kits have given me faith in their products with a couple of exceptions - and those exceptions aren't here.

Just curious for other applications, what items are on your exceptions list?

bobzilla has it right, use the right pad for the activity. I wouldn't consider EBC Yellows to be a real track pad, but they should work for autocross (but then so would stock pads). A real track pad (PFC, Pagid, Raybestos, etc.) on your stock rotors may be all you need.

Before you start spending money I'd go on some Mustang forums and see what others with the same car are doing for brakes at track events. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Caliper rigidity is huge.  Not just for pedal feel, but also weird binding issues.

Brake rotors are a dear subject for me because there is a huge difference between a cheapo rotor and a quality rotor blank.  Cheapo rotors may have significant core shift, which can cause odd issues when the faces are 20% or more thinner than they are 180 degrees away.  The thin parts are going to get hot faster and you get brake judder at best or cracking at worst.  This is even before you run into air pockets in the metal.

But MATERIAL!  Good rotors have a good and consistent friction surface.  I have receieved cheapo rotors that were made with too much graphite in the mix or something and were snot-slick.  Just no good friction.  You're not going to get that with a high quality rotor blank.

bobzilla said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thanks. 

Ducting only works to a point. Even with ducting it is possible to overheat the pads and they become less effective. The G35 is a case in point. After 3 hot laps, the brakes were starting to go away even with ducting. With the amount of ducting I could get to the rotors, it still wasn't enough. The brakes would generate more heat than the ducts could remove. I don't want to deal with that issue. From there you need larger rotors and pads to help with heat control. Larger rotors and pads are able to absorb more heat without degraded performance. The larger rotor and pad will also dissipate more heat due to the larger surface area. 

The point of this discussion isn't to debate whether the car needs better brake hardware or why. I don't know that yet as I haven't driven it in anger. The point of this thread is to discuss the relative effectiveness of 3 brake kits and why one might be better than the other in terms of performance, cost, availability, and the ability to deal with track use on a heavy car. Then I can make an informed decision as to which direction I go if I decide it is needed. 

I am hoping that people with familiarity with the three manufacturers in question will share their insights as to which they prefer and why. 

 

 

This is why they make pads for track use. I've done the "performance street pad on track" and have gone and bought proper pads for track use. There is NO comparison. I'd do the easy GT swap and use a real pad that's track oriented, flush the fluid and go have fun. EBC Yellows are not the right option for that. Street driving and autox? Sure, but oe pads work in those cases. The track is another ball game.

We ran Porterfield R4 pads last year for one lap and I ran them all season with GL and some other groups. Coming into 1 at CMP no biggie. wait for the last brake marker stand on the brakes, release through the corner and back on gas. No mess, no muss, no fuss. Trust me, get some good pads for the job and it will work much better.

I know all about good pads. I run Porterfield R4E on the Lemons Civic. They are the perfect pad for the car and last 2  24 hour events at CMP.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Caliper rigidity is huge.  Not just for pedal feel, but also weird binding issues.

 

Brake rotors are a dear subject for me because there is a huge difference between a cheapo rotor and a quality rotor blank.  Cheapo rotors may have significant core shift, which can cause odd issues when the faces are 20% or more thinner than they are 180 degrees away.  The thin parts are going to get hot faster and you get brake judder at best or cracking at worst.  This is even before you run into air pockets in the metal.

But MATERIAL!  Good rotors have a good and consistent friction surface.  I have receieved cheapo rotors that were made with too much graphite in the mix or something and were snot-slick.  Just no good friction.  You're not going to get that with a high quality rotor blank.

I run Centric rotors on the Civic. They have been consistently good and fairly cheap.

Toyman! said:

bobzilla said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thanks. 

Ducting only works to a point. Even with ducting it is possible to overheat the pads and they become less effective. The G35 is a case in point. After 3 hot laps, the brakes were starting to go away even with ducting. With the amount of ducting I could get to the rotors, it still wasn't enough. The brakes would generate more heat than the ducts could remove. I don't want to deal with that issue. From there you need larger rotors and pads to help with heat control. Larger rotors and pads are able to absorb more heat without degraded performance. The larger rotor and pad will also dissipate more heat due to the larger surface area. 

The point of this discussion isn't to debate whether the car needs better brake hardware or why. I don't know that yet as I haven't driven it in anger. The point of this thread is to discuss the relative effectiveness of 3 brake kits and why one might be better than the other in terms of performance, cost, availability, and the ability to deal with track use on a heavy car. Then I can make an informed decision as to which direction I go if I decide it is needed. 

I am hoping that people with familiarity with the three manufacturers in question will share their insights as to which they prefer and why. 

 

 

This is why they make pads for track use. I've done the "performance street pad on track" and have gone and bought proper pads for track use. There is NO comparison. I'd do the easy GT swap and use a real pad that's track oriented, flush the fluid and go have fun. EBC Yellows are not the right option for that. Street driving and autox? Sure, but oe pads work in those cases. The track is another ball game.

We ran Porterfield R4 pads last year for one lap and I ran them all season with GL and some other groups. Coming into 1 at CMP no biggie. wait for the last brake marker stand on the brakes, release through the corner and back on gas. No mess, no muss, no fuss. Trust me, get some good pads for the job and it will work much better.

I know all about good pads. I run Porterfield R4E on the Lemons Civic. They are the perfect pad for the car and last 2  24 hour events at CMP.

 

I know I'll get jumped on for this but.... you already know the answer. Why are we having this conversation?Stop using E36 M3ty pads for the wrong application! You use good pads for a $500 lemons car but not on your $15k nicer car? Seems backwards thinking to me. But i know I'm terrible or something. 

In reply to bobzilla :

Terrible? No. But what are you talking about? Did you read the first post?

I asked what the difference was between between 3 different brake manufactures in 3 different price points from $2900 down to $800 dollars. What are the advantages from one to the other. Pretty sure I have stated this multiple times in this thread. I was hoping people with experience with these manufacturers would share what they did or didn't like about the products and if they thought the prices were justified. 

I did not ask for advice on what to run, just what would make a $2900 brake kit better than a $800 kit. This is research that assuming that the brakes on this car are as bad as the brakes on my wife's 03 Mustang, which are notorious for being too small for the car. That is all. 

matthewmcl said:

Keith Tanner said:

 ...selling Wilwood kits have given me faith in their products with a couple of exceptions - and those exceptions aren't here.

Just curious for other applications, what items are on your exceptions list?

The Dynapro 6 wasn't a stiff enough caliper and exhibited knock-back type characteristics on track. I didn't like it. The 6A replacement fixed that but made pad changes more difficult which was acceptable for the trade off. 
 The one in Toyman's proposed kit has a removable bridge bolt which fixes that. 

I've always had good luck with Wilwood. They were on our D-sports racer and they are on my F500 and they've performed flawlessly.

As mentioned earlier my 1600lb Datsun has brakes from a 3200lb car so I can get away with plain old street pads.

I think the advice to check Mustang forums is wise.

This is not going to answer your question regarding the brake set-ups that you are considering for tracking the Mustang but it might give you some reassurance that upgrading is justified when tracking the car.

I had an 05’ GT (300hp) that I tracked at Gingerman Raceway and Mid-Ohio.

My first time with the car at Gingerman was with the standard 05’ GT rotors (12.44”) fresh high temp brake fluid, and stock FoMoCo pads. Top speed on the longest straight was around 110 mph slowing into a 45 mph 90 degree turn. With this set up, the brakes (pads) would fade after 1-2 hard laps.

Next time at Gingerman was with the 2014 GT rotors (13.22”) which just required a caliper bracket change and new rotors (same calipers and hoses were used). Fresh fluid and pads changed to Powerstop Track Day pads. This set up would run consecutive laps without significant fade but it felt right on the edge (low confidence that the brakes would be 100% effective unless you stood on them hard).

Next was Mid-Ohio with the same 13.22” rotors, fresh fluid, Powerstop Trackday pads, and 3” brake ducts installed. Mid-Ohio increased speeds to 125 mph into a 45-50mph  turn and I did not have brake fade but the rotors were heat checked (tiny crack looking defects across the rotor surface). They worked okay but again not confidence inspiring.

The next step was to upgrade to the Factory Brembo’s with 14” rotors but as with many things in life a different car caught my eye and I sold the Mustang.

I am very confident that the Brembo’s would have been the final upgrade assuming no power was added to the equation. I know that the Powerstop Track Day pads were far from optimal and that a pad upgrade could have possibly pushed the 13.32” rotor configuration with ducting into the acceptable range long term.

Hopefully as your car is of similar horsepower and weight, you can find something useful in this.

In reply to fusion66 :

Thanks for the info. 

A quick search on the book of faces shows the performance pack calipers in various states of kit are ~400 from a variety of ads.  

I tracked a 2005 GT for a while and can say the cheapest upgrade was a set of junkyard GT500 calipers and rotors. I got mine for $400 with rotors. I think the biggest gripe i had with mine was i had them recoated and they are 2 piece with little o-rings in between the two halfs of the caliper which if they arent lined up just right will get pinched and leak. 

My setup was pretty basic and worked on my 3500lb GT "deluxe":
GT500 4 piston Brembo calipers
OE rotors turned and replaced every 2-3 days with Centric blanks
2.5" speaker port tubes glued into the front bumper grille
2.5" silicone duct to tie rod end and zip tied in place(couldnt find backing plates to work ducts into)
Stoptech lines and RBF600 fluid
Hawk Blues or HP+ pads(whichever was cheaper at the time)

They are the OE parts so they fit perfectly and anything to rebuild/replace is readily available(for the most part - 2 piece calipers have the o-rings between the bridge halfs and i pinched one causing a leak). 

I did try a Baer Eradi-speed 14" kit before the OE Brembos and they were horrendous. I believe they were C4 or C5 Corvette calipers with 2 piece drilled and slotted discs. Fitment was garbage, the delivered pads were terrible even during autocross and the replacement rotor rings cost a fortune. Ended up basically giving away the kit from the pure frustration. 
 

In reply to kevinatfms :

Was yours the 14 inch 07-12 GT500 Brembo kit that the 11-14 GT Brembo kit being discussed was identical to, or the less common 15 inch 13-14 GT500 Brembo kit?

Driven5 said:

In reply to kevinatfms :

Was yours the 14 inch 07-12 GT500 Brembo kit that the 11-14 GT Brembo kit being discussed was identical to, or the less common 15 inch 13-14 GT500 Brembo kit?

They were 07 GT500 4 piston Brembos and rotors off a car a friend saw at a local recycler. The later "Track Package" cars had the same exact calipers. Mine were the original gloss black with white lettering. Later cars had the cooler looking satin black with red lettering.

FYI, 4 piston GT500 calipers, pads, lines and rotors for $400. Turn the rotors, clean the pads up and bleed them. Bolt on brake upgrade for $400. Spend the rest on some ducting setup and better pads for the track.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165983470757?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114145%26meid%3D7a3fbceb0f9c4079b0be24afa275cd5c%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D294591583367%26itm%3D165983470757%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2351460%26brand%3DFord&_trksid=p2351460.c100667.m2042

One additional benefit of lager rotors that I haven't seen discussed yet is that they'll also be a more effective at pumping air through the vents in the rotor, helping with cooling (it's a larger fan, essentially). Rotor width is also a factor in that, as a wider rotor with wider vents can move more air.

Can you get rebuild parts for Brembos?  Last time I bothered to check, they did not sell O rings because they didn't want people taking the calipers apart.

I mean, it's probably just a generic O ring, but it'd be nice to have them before taking everything apart.

RX8driver said:

One additional benefit of lager rotors that I haven't seen discussed yet is that they'll also be a more effective at pumping air through the vents in the rotor, helping with cooling (it's a larger fan, essentially). Rotor width is also a factor in that, as a wider rotor with wider vents can move more air.

People forget that radiation is still the workhorse of dealing with heat.  Yes you can  blast air through the rotors and it helps.  But if you look at modern race cars the spokes are as skinny as possible not only to reduce weight but also to allow more heat to radiate out.  

Do you have actual ducting on the car? By actual ducting, I mean a 2.5 or 3" flexy pipe from the front of the car somewhere (fog light holes, etc) to each of the front wheels. Cut a hole in the backing plate for it.