In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
Trying to find a turbo dropout was difficult for me. I had a Mighty Max and was looking for a wrecked 1g so I could have all the wiring and ancillaries and it was pretty tough. A lot of the importers are doing rotated newer Evos which don't play nice. You'll some JDM cyclones but that seems about it.
In reply to L5wolvesf :
You're looking at 1gs? NA 2gs use the 420 motors out of contemporary DOHC neons.
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
Plastigage has as much a place in the toolbox as bore gauges. It's more idiot proof as a final check, and you can see things with it like distorted bores that you might not catch with a snap gauge.
Been there done that..
Pretty conventional lil DOHC 4 banger, iron block, aluminum head. Way overbuilt in the mentality of pre-FEA, steal is cheap sort of way. The whole cars are like this.
Some would call them heavy and utilitarian and they are. I abused mine way more than anyone with common sense ever would. No room for cooling fans after adding a big front mount and a big turbo? No problem. Huge gouge in the #2 cylinder? Button it up with Fel Pro gaskets and send it. Torque those ARP studs to the moon and hope for the best. Spec calls for 100 ft/lbs? Run them to 120. Boost controller not giving you all the boosts? Disconnect the wastegate line. Knock sensor? Move it up to the firewall so it can't report knock from your clattering lifters. No PCV valve cluttering up the engine bay, just run a hose down toward the ground and watch it smoke like a freight train at full boost. Shelled a center diff? Weld that sumbitch up, don't worry about thrashing axles or rear ends, those are cheap. Slam it to the weeds on AGXs and Sportlines.
Engine management? Nah, just add this AFC thingy to trick the stock computer and gut the stock MAF. Toss in some Denso 660s and an unregulated Walbro 255 with the relief crushed so it will make more fuel pressure to go with more boost pressure. Put the stock FPR in a vice and clamp it shut so you get more fuel pressure. Run 2 heat ranges colder plugs and smells like a fuel leak at idle. Exhaust? A 3" section of milker pipe ought to do just ducky! No need to run it to the back, just point it out a fenderwell.
Oh man, those were the days!
fatallightning said:In reply to L5wolvesf :
You're looking at 1gs? NA 2gs use the 420 motors out of contemporary DOHC neons.
Yes first gen, not easy to find already built for IMCA :(
Boost_Crazy said:As far as some of the other posts... these cars are not known for their track prowless. The engine is the only reason IMHO to own a dsm.I think more accurately, people have forgetten about their track prowess because they are much more often found on a drag strip. The 1G cars are smaller, lighter, two door versions of a homologated WRC rally car. The 2G's are a little heavier, but have an excellent suspension design. Together, they dominated the SCCA world challenge for 7 years in a row. And they did it in AWD turbo, FWD turbo, and FWD N/A configurations, so it was not just the engine or AWD.
Personally, I've spent lots of time on track, at autocross, and at rally crosses. Set up right and driven correctly, they can more than hold their own in the twisty bits.
Boost, I'd really like to hear what you know about autoX setup for a 1G. It seems there isn't a ton of info out there. When they were in their prime in the mid 90s I saw tons drag racing in the Pacific NW, but didn't often see them dodging cones.
Funny this has bumped. I've had my fun with them for a second go round and am moving on again. Someone buy my DSM.
In reply to AnthonyGS :
We used to have quite a bit of people autocrossing them back then in the SF Bay Area. They were softly sprung and rode high stock, like just about all other cars of the era. So owners installed lowering springs. The problem was that the rear suspension gained a lot more negative camber than the front when lowered, making understeer worse. The front camber needed to be addressed, preferably with camber plates but even camber bolts made a big difference. Adding more caster helps. Then as much negative camber needed to be adjusted out of the rear as possible. Once the ride height, spring rate, and alignment issues were addressed, the platform could be made to handle very well. Sway bars could be used to fine tune the handling, but most rushed to the biggest rear bar they could find to “fix” the understeer. In my opinion that was a bandaid for using the wrong driving technique. The AWD DSM’s needed to be driven like a FWD car on corner entry, and more like a RWD car on corner exit. They responded very well to lifts of the throttle to tuck in the nose in sweepers, and trail braking on tighter corners. The trick was to get the car to start rotating, then you could steer it with the throttle. It took a very aggressive approach, if you drove too conservatively it was more difficult to get the rear of the car to step out and join the party. Once you felt the rear stepping out, you could stand on the gas to keep it there. Done correctly, you would exit the corner in a nice four wheel drift under full power. They were very good at slaloms, needing just a lift of the throttle to tuck the nose in for the next gate. The really tight, slow corners were the toughest. Not enough speed to throw the car around, and usually too slow to exit in 2nd gear. But 1st gear was very short, and the DSM gear boxes didn’t like dropping down into first at speed in a hurry. You needed to turn off your mechanical empathy for a bit, force it into first, and do a bit of a clutch drop to avoid bogging it out of a slow corner. Everything else is the same every other car- better shocks work better, sway bars can fine tune the balance, better tires on the right sized wheels provide more grip. I’ve heard that a mechanical rear LSD from an EVO does wonders for the car, but I’ve never driven one set up like that myself.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Mine is lowered so I'm going to need camber bolts or plates for the front. I can visually see what you mean about the rear camber gain. I will try to get it right too. Thanks for the info it is great to have the input and experience to reference here. Other car forums have lost a lot of this.
Is there a longitudinal transmission available, just out of curiousity?
stroker said:Is there a longitudinal transmission available, just out of curiousity?
Nothing out there from Mitsu that will take the power. Buschnuts used to make a DSM to Chevy bellhousing adapter. Would let you run any 'glide, TH350, etc.
In reply to yupididit :
Thanks for the advice.
Knurled. said:In reply to yupididit :
The cheapest way costs a lot of money up front. Cutting corners is the expensive way, isn't it?
Dope
stroker said:Is there a longitudinal transmission available, just out of curiousity?
Sort of?
This is thirdhand information, apparently the 2.6 bellhousing bolts up. The 2.6 transmission sucks, but the first two years of Mazda B2600 used Mitsubishi engines and Mazda "ribcase" (RX-3/4/5/Turbo II/FD) transmisisons, so people use the 4G63 engine and rare bellhousing and Turbo II transmission. The Turbo II transmission is the sweet spot of strength and commonness.
people put them in front of glides and turbo 400's as well.
In reply to NordicSaab :
I was hoping you could tell me more about your build could you possibly email me? Jeffreyscharf13@gmail.com
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Can you help me with my build? Could you email me jeffreyscharf13@gmail.com
Nothing out there from Mitsu that will take the power.
The Mitsu 4spd auto is an Aisin variant similar to the AW4 in a Cherokee which everyone loves, or the A340 toyotas which everyone also loves and have gone 8s in the 1/4 mile in Supras. It's a strong trans that gets a bad rap because noone on the internet knows anything about it (in mitsu guise).
Narrowblock RWD trans have the 4g63 bellhousing. But if you have a wideblock trans you can use a 4g64 block as iirc they use the wideblock bellhousing. Just so happens you could get a chrysler 904 in mitsu pattern since that was the 3spd auto in the 80s. That thing can definitely be built to hold enough for anything that's not a 9 or 8 second car.
So there are 'native' options if anyone cared to explore them.
I used to know a guy that used a T5 on his 4g, not sure what company he used. And it was in his AE86 drift car
RWD swap? Go down the rabbit hole here and come back when you have a RWD 4G63 drift missle:
There is a fellow in Toledo that makes custom cast bell housings that can adapt both narrow and wide blocks to pretty much any transmission you want. I think a NASCAR or liberty 4 speed box would be fun with a high revving big turbo 2.0L.
https://www.billsautofab.com/projects/
The problem with a DSM is not making power, its keeping the drivetrain together. Pretty much everyone threw the highest clamp load clutch on it and launched the piss out of it. Guess what? Axles, transfer cases, rear ends, driveshafts, center diffs, do NOT like shock loading when you launch on a highly prepped surface with no preload. Even if you build a transmission with better synchros, ISF, better diffs, the gear width will eventually be a limitation at about 500 ft-lbs you WILL start shredding gears. That's why the key to keeping these things together is high revving 2.0L and not a torque monster stroker engine.
A good recipe for keeping things together: OEM axles (NOT aftermarket rebuilds), a clutch that will not exceed the torque limits of the transmission, proper (or none) launch technique on sticky surfaces, and slicks if you plan on launching on a drag strip (less shock loading).
This engine never ceases to do these two things:
1) make less power than the customer thinks it should
2) always makes way more than I think it should knowing the customer
It's an odd problem, but I've always been amazed at what this engine will take. Stock car + race gas - wastegate hose = test and tune hero. No joke. At least until the transfer case pukes.
Cheap speed is super easy with DSMs, what has changed recently is turbo technology. Evo3 16G or 20G were the hot ticket, holsets for budget, now you can get a stock appearing "16G" that flows 52 lb/min!
Paul_VR6 said:This engine never ceases to do these two things:
1) make less power than the customer thinks it should
2) always makes way more than I think it should knowing the customer
It's an odd problem, but I've always been amazed at what this engine will take. Stock car + race gas - wastegate hose = test and tune hero. No joke. At least until the transfer case pukes.
It also amazed me how tough the drivetrain was.
Sure you broke it. You also launched by sidestepping the clutch at 7000rpm with a 600hp engine on four slicks. Anything OEM will break from that...
You can pop the tcase with way way less than that. Easier to do on stree tires too.
In reply to Paul_VR6 :
I can see that.
I also remember when people used to run DSMs in Open class stage rally, despite their atrociously small cabins that killed sightlines once you put a rally spec cage in them, and their incredibly bad gear ratios available, because the drivetrains were made of unbreakium. (You were power limited by the 40mm or 36mm restrictor but you could crank up the boost to make all the torque you wanted) Meanwhile, you didn't rally a Subaru without a spare trans or two in the trailer, even if you were running a nonturbo car.
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