Let’s talk about connected cars

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

my uncle has a country place...

No one knows about.... 

Mndsm said:

Anything that sends a signal, can accept a signal. The last thing I need is some jagoff with a laptop bricking my car for ransom. It's part of the reason I don't trust self install wireless home safety systems. 

Yes, that's one of my concerns too. It looks like most of the connectivity hardware in most cars could be removed/unplugged. The data records may still be there, but no means of transmission.

Note:

There is a difference between connected cars, and autonomous cars. Most autonomous (self-driving) cars are connected, but most connected cars are not autonomous. Most new cars will be connected, but not autonomous. 
 

This thread is about connected.

frenchyd said:

ProDarwin said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Collecting a large amount of data is easy. Having somebody look at the data and actually make sense of it is hard, and time consuming.

Companies train AI for exactly this reason.  It can comb through the data infinitely faster than humans can.

8 billion ( and growing)  people doing an infinite number of things  demands priorities. 
  For example if I'm King of AI  data I would search for the most destructive  things first. Mass  Murder, for example. 
  Way down on the bottom would be benign choices such as where to buy a cup of coffee. 
   Remember even if that data can all be harvested, there are finite resources  to react to that data. 

Unfortunately this is not how either the TLAs or the tech megacorps think.

The TLAs don't hyper-focus on the known most dangerous people as you might expect, they tend to be really hard targets. They're just as interested in collecting easily available information on mostly probably less dangerous people en masse and then using software to sift through it all in the hopes of catching a few more dangerous ones. The documentary Citizenfour is a good starting point to learning more about this.

The tech megacorps don't care about what's destructive, just profit. They'll negligently allow people to organize seditious activities and genocides on mainstream social media platforms while collecting ultra-detailed information on you to sell to big first-world marketers, including some who will get deep into the details to try to subtly manipulate your thinking and even affect your dreams (not kidding). And then the TLAs can often easily get access to all that information as well, through more or less legally legitimate methods.

Mndsm said:

Anything that sends a signal, can accept a signal. The last thing I need is some jagoff with a laptop bricking my car for ransom. It's part of the reason I don't trust self install wireless home safety systems. 

Yea, we don't really need to send or receive signals from things anymore to get the data off of them. 

Turning a hard drive into amicrophone

Pulling data from air gapped computers

Air gap means not or never connected to the internet. 

And honestly, at this stage "where did I stop for coffee" is probably more valuable info than "mass murder". 
 

It's data that can be sold. Advertisers, medical insurance, etc. "Mass murder" is not very useful data at this time (except to terrorists). 
 

I don't think people realize how valuable mundane data is. A single medical file can sell for about $300 on the black market.  An entire parking lot full of medical patients and doctors?  Who knows. 
 

It's the way of the world now. But I'm not sure who should be the key holders of the data access. 
 

Should this stuff be regulated?  Free access?  Should individuals have any say in how their data is used?  
 

We are now a society of surveillance capitalism. That has some really big implications. 

SV reX said:

Note:

There is a difference between connected cars, and autonomous cars. Most autonomous (self-driving) cars are connected, but most connected cars are not autonomous. Most new cars will be connected, but not autonomous. 
 

This thread is about connected.

 

 

I understand the line you're drawing here, but to me personally, it's a very fuzzy line.

But that's because I fail to see the point of connectivity without autonomousness, unless it's just for surveillance and advertising. 

Great, the cars are online, and can talk to each other. Is Billy Bob going to put down his phone to pay attention to the warning on the dash? Will Mary Sue be able to control her anxiety and keep speed in the zipper merge even with an all clear from the surrounding cars?

SV reX said:

It's the way of the world now. But I'm not sure who should be the key holders of the data access. 
 

Should this stuff be regulated?  Free access?  Should individuals have any say in how their data is used?  
 

We are now a society of surveillance capitalism. That has some really big implications. 

Well we could have governments which we have some degree of democratic control over create regulatory frameworks to control access, which has mostly worked well so far in health care for example, and has shown some potential in GDPR regulation...or we could leave it up to people who have a profit motive to be as invasive and careless with it as they can get away with...hope I'm not getting too political

frenchyd said:

ProDarwin said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Collecting a large amount of data is easy. Having somebody look at the data and actually make sense of it is hard, and time consuming.

Companies train AI for exactly this reason.  It can comb through the data infinitely faster than humans can.

8 billion ( and growing)  people doing an infinite number of things  demands priorities. 
  For example if I'm King of AI  data I would search for the most destructive  things first. Mass  Murder, for example. 
  Way down on the bottom would be benign choices such as where to buy a cup of coffee. 
   Remember even if that data can all be harvested, there are finite resources  to react to that data. 

So let's look at this from another angle. We can even base it in reality.

The NSA collects EVERYTHING on the internet, based in our country and abroad, and stores it. This is documented fact. The CIA does the same thing, but they also spy on our politicians AND the NSA, again, verifiable fact. 

But what can you do with so much information? Anything you want, and that's the problem.

Want to turn an election in your favor? Send your little AI through to find people who support the Purple Puppies For Everyone party. You now have a list of solid supporters, people on the fence, and people who think Cats Rule The World Party is a better option. But not only do you have a list of supporters, by now taking those names and searching more specifically, you can find common ground, common problematic areas, and decide how you want to assist things going in the Purple Puppies party favor, either through targeted advertising, direct communication, and making a more generalized "trap", where an innocuous ad shows up in the people with mixed feelings or who don't care to try to draw them over to your preferred party. 

OOr another aspect. 

I don't know your name, but I suspect you were born in Minnetonka in March 1965 because you graduated class of 83 and proudly lived there all your life. Now I want to know whip you are. First, check graduating class of 83, that gets a short list. Knock off all the female names, we have a shorter list. Because you did a survey thwart mentioned your astrological sign, I know to search in the spring. That gets us down to about 5 people, from there, it's not even a guessing game to see that "oh, you're Elijah Woods". 

Now, what good does that do anybody? Nothing, at first. But say you decide that you don't like the Cats For Everybody party anymore. Now the people who work for the party can find you and try to drag you back into it, whether physically, or through more subtle means, like your favorite character on Bonanza now wears a yellow handkerchief, your search ads have more to deal with cats, maybe you get some new Facebook friends that start trying to nudge you in that direction. 

Frankly it's dystopian and frightening. Especially because it's been almost 10 years since a lot of this stuff went public, so Bob only knows what is happening NOW in modern times with modern tech. 

There's also the legal aspect of it. With the millions of laws in the books, you're guilty of something. Period, that's just a statement. Doesn't matter if the law makes sense or hasn't been properly enforced in 80 years, you're guilty. Now, you run afoul of the Purple Puppies For Everybody party. Suddenly your little blip on a computer screen becomes a computer screen. Oh, well he jaywalked with an ice cream cone on a Sunday (yes, real law in some city in Kansas) that's punishable by fine and 30 days in jail. 

Do you see the slippery slope?

Now you'll call me crazy, tell me I'm paranoid, but if you shut off your TV and go back through the leaks from Snowden, the treasure trove of CIA white papers from wikileaks, hell, just sit down and start reading law books, you'll find Minority Report wasn't as much of a sci-fi movie as we'd all like to think. 

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Honestly, I almost trust Google and Amazon more than I trust the government of the country I live in. At least I understand their motives. As long as the politicians are owned by the megacorps they aren't going to change anything anyways.

RevRico said:

Want to turn an election in your favor? Send your little AI through to find people who support the Purple Puppies For Everyone party. You now have a list of solid supporters, people on the fence, and people who think Cats Rule The World Party is a better option. But not only do you have a list of supporters, by now taking those names and searching more specifically, you can find common ground, common problematic areas, and decide how you want to assist things going in the Purple Puppies party favor, either through targeted advertising, direct communication, and making a more generalized "trap", where an innocuous ad shows up in the people with mixed feelings or who don't care to try to draw them over to your preferred party. 

OOr another aspect. 

I don't know your name, but I suspect you were born in Minnetonka in March 1965 because you graduated class of 83 and proudly lived there all your life. Now I want to know whip you are. First, check graduating class of 83, that gets a short list. Knock off all the female names, we have a shorter list. Because you did a survey thwart mentioned your astrological sign, I know to search in the spring. That gets us down to about 5 people, from there, it's not even a guessing game to see that "oh, you're Elijah Woods". 

Now, what good does that do anybody? Nothing, at first. But say you decide that you don't like the Cats For Everybody party anymore. Now the people who work for the party can find you and try to drag you back into it, whether physically, or through more subtle means, like your favorite character on Bonanza now wears a yellow handkerchief, your search ads have more to deal with cats, maybe you get some new Facebook friends that start trying to nudge you in that direction.

Or you can just log the hell off the Internet. The less time you spend online, the less propaganda you have to read. The less information you put online, the less information they have about you. Yes they can show up at your door, but that is more work for them than becoming your "Facebook Friend".

RevRico said:

Mndsm said:

Anything that sends a signal, can accept a signal. The last thing I need is some jagoff with a laptop bricking my car for ransom. It's part of the reason I don't trust self install wireless home safety systems. 

Yea, we don't really need to send or receive signals from things anymore to get the data off of them. 

Turning a hard drive into amicrophone

Pulling data from air gapped computers

Air gap means not or never connected to the internet. 

Yeah, and that's without giving them help. I'm sure as hell not trying to hold the door. 

RevRico said:

Mndsm said:

Anything that sends a signal, can accept a signal. The last thing I need is some jagoff with a laptop bricking my car for ransom. It's part of the reason I don't trust self install wireless home safety systems. 

Yea, we don't really need to send or receive signals from things anymore to get the data off of them. 

Turning a hard drive into amicrophone

Pulling data from air gapped computers

Air gap means not or never connected to the internet. 

Air Gap means Edelbrock intake manifold.

In reply to RevRico :

I don't think you read the article. 
 

Im not talking about a fuzzy line between autonomous cars and cars connected to each other giving feedback to human drivers to make decisions. That article had nothing to do with cars giving driving data to each other. 
 

The article is about the data automakers are already collecting (like location, speed, engine functions) and how it should be used, managed, and accessed. 
 

Interconnected driving enhancements is an entirely different issue (which DOES relate to autonomous driving)

I work in healthcare, and the amount of data we collect is astronomical. Down to your gene sequences for some patients. It's (relatively) heavily protected and safeguarded but still there are companies out there right now looking for any loopholes they can find to gather a giant dataset of patient health information, and monetize that data and be able to sell it. 

As of right now your genetic results cannot affect your health insurance, but the same cannot be said for disability, life insurance, or long term care insurance.

Wherever there are profits to be extracted, you can bet someone is trying to leverage all this data to do it. 

The Russia/Ukraine situation is shining a light on this stuff also. People have called for ole Elon to shut down russian Teslas. Sure he didnt do it, but it makes you wonder, who has access to my stuff and how easy can they alter/access it or shut it down. On top of that you have how easily words like domestic terrorist, enemy of the state, and truth and reconciliation get thrown around, and it makes you wonder what opinion do I have today that may not fit the norm tomorrow and will get me in trouble.

Im sure a few years ago if you told people that police would be showing up to question you based on your facespace posts they'd think you were being paranoid, but look at Australia now.

In reply to Erich :

I have worked behind the scenes in healthcare for a long time. 
 

You'd be shocked at how much is not protected or safeguarded in most facilities. 

Ever since this thread has shown up I can't help but think of some dystopian state where only someone with a flip phone and a non connected car could survive, it is time for the Rick Mitchell Special...

In reply to NY Nick :

I vote Fairmont. 

In reply to Toyman! :

I stole the pic from a Jalopnik story. Apparently it is a celebrity wagon, although the headlights look the same.

I know aerospace does a really good job of using data aquistion and connected flight systems to do predictive maintenenace on planes. Pratt and Whintey claims it extends service life and lowers operating costs. Maybe if the car companies are collecting and sharing that data we can see the same benefit in automotive?

I drive a whole lot differently on a track day or an autocross than I do on the way to work in heavy traffic. I also feel that motorsports activities actually help me keep my driving skills up. But try to explain that to an insurance company reading your black box. You can't.

I can't even work the radio in our newest car...it only gets one station without being a major distraction.  You can have speed and miles at the same time I don't think.  I'm pretty sure more tech features make the car worse.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

I drive a whole lot differently on a track day or an autocross than I do on the way to work in heavy traffic. I also feel that motorsports activities actually help me keep my driving skills up. But try to explain that to an insurance company reading your black box. You can't.

So don't race a street car. Buy a racecar. Don't want to have to continuely  update it?  Make it a vintage race car. The neat thing about that approach is instead of it becoming worth less and less each year, it's more valuable as time goes by. 
       Look at what 30-50 year old race cars sell for compared  to 5 year old street cars that have been raced 

NY Nick said:

In reply to Toyman! :

I stole the pic from a Jalopnik story. Apparently it is a celebrity wagon, although the headlights look the same.

I know aerospace does a really good job of using data aquistion and connected flight systems to do predictive maintenenace on planes. Pratt and Whintey claims it extends service life and lowers operating costs. Maybe if the car companies are collecting and sharing that data we can see the same benefit in automotive?

Without pistons going up, stopping and back down with only 1 stroke out of 4 making power. Without gearboxes and timing chains( belts) valves and other such inefficiencies. Electric will probably be significantly less expensive to maintain.  Plus a lot of the maintenance can be done while it's being charged. With the technician never leaving his keyboard at home. 
    

frenchyd said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

I drive a whole lot differently on a track day or an autocross than I do on the way to work in heavy traffic. I also feel that motorsports activities actually help me keep my driving skills up. But try to explain that to an insurance company reading your black box. You can't.

So don't race a street car. Buy a racecar. Don't want to have to continuely  update it?  Make it a vintage race car. The neat thing about that approach is instead of it becoming worth less and less each year, it's more valuable as time goes by. 
       Look at what 30-50 year old race cars sell for compared  to 5 year old street cars that have been raced 

I actually have a Miata and a 914 in addition to the Mustang. But sometimes those are not running when I want to go autocrossing and the Mustang always runs, being a much newer car. There is also a big difference between taking my daily driver to an occasional autocross and putting a cage in it and entering it in a road race. I'm not sure I want to go past time trialing at this point in my life.