Toyman01 wrote: As someone who drives a fair amount at night, I'd like to see cheap Ebay retrofit HIDs banned. They throw entirely too much light down the road and many systems seem to do so indiscriminately.
That's the real problem, not HIDs themselves.
I don't have a lighting issue.... while this photo is a bit old... she now carries Cibie Zbeams for headlamps, and the projector lamps are Hella DE2000.
The Cibies keep the glare down and the Hella's have a cut off so precise, a line can be drawn
Keith Tanner wrote: More light is always better.
I will respectfully disagree. Eyes can only adjust so much for different light conditions. If you have a too-bright pattern on the road, you won't be able to see anything lurking just outside the beams.
This is why, for example, you don't want to have your dash illumination cranked all the way up, and cars USED TO dim illuminated radios at night. Less bright in the foreground means the dark things in the background are easier to see.
Knurled wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: More light is always better.I will respectfully disagree. Eyes can only adjust so much for different light conditions. If you have a too-bright pattern on the road, you won't be able to see anything lurking just outside the beams. This is why, for example, you don't want to have your dash illumination cranked all the way up, and cars USED TO dim illuminated radios at night. Less bright in the foreground means the dark things in the background are easier to see.
This is very true. However, it's mostly an issue with low beams where you can only throw light so far down the road while meeting the goal of not blinding other drivers.
On high beam, all bets are off. You can put light wherever you need it so there's no such thing as too much as long as it's well placed. If you've got a dark spot that you can't see and want/need to, just add more light to cover that area.
And I hear you on the dash illumination... The first thing I do when I drive most people's cars is turn the damn dash lights down. Mine are pretty much always dimmed all the way and sometimes I wish they got even dimmer. IMO, the dash should be just bright enough to read the gauges and no more.
I think, to skirt regulations about blinding other drivers I need to design a pair of drones carrying LED flood lamps that fly off a charging dock on the roof to illuminate the road ahead of the car from above and take turns recharging.
The top of the line model will target animals and highlight them on the display of your dashboard.
To skirt regulations about drone safety we will call them "Anamorphic Nightime Untethered Surveillance".
Knurled wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: More light is always better.I will respectfully disagree. Eyes can only adjust so much for different light conditions. If you have a too-bright pattern on the road, you won't be able to see anything lurking just outside the beams. This is why, for example, you don't want to have your dash illumination cranked all the way up, and cars USED TO dim illuminated radios at night. Less bright in the foreground means the dark things in the background are easier to see.
Agreed, which is why I stopped using 90W low beams (with a really sharp cutoff) about 15 years ago. It's also why I tend to use driving light patterns instead of pencil beams, for a wider spread.
For the pedants, I shall expand my statement.
More light, properly distributed and used under appropriate conditions, is always better. Poor light patterns are undesirable.
Good? I agree about dash lights, the LED info panel in the center of my Dodge's cluster doesn't dim as far as the other lights and it's a pain.
Interestingly, the LEDs seem to have less glare off street signs than the halogens, even with a similar pattern. I think this is also related to temperature. I can't comment about HIDs here as my BMW uses halogens for the high beams.
Keith Tanner wrote: the LED info panel in the center of my Dodge's cluster doesn't dim as far as the other lights and it's a pain
I covered my infotainment screen with a square of walmart static cling window tint, the kind you get to stick on a rear side window to keep babies from experiencing whatever it is that the sun does to babies. The light pollution inside the car from all of the electronics is a bit much these days.
Keith Tanner wrote: Interestingly, the LEDs seem to have less glare off street signs than the halogens, even with a similar pattern. I think this is also related to temperature. I can't comment about HIDs here as my BMW uses halogens for the high beams.
At this point, I'm convinced that street signs and such are just too reflective. I've had quite a few times where I've needed to dim the high beams because I was being blinded by the reflection off a few street signs. On a lonely stretch of highway with those stupid reflective things every few feet on the guardrails, the high beams are basically un-usable due to the amount of stuff glowing back in my face (even though this is the time when high beams should be most useful).
The self-leveling HIDs in my BMW are very good. Fresh housings (because the ZKW housings burn reflectors over time,) correct bulbs, and calibration yields a razor sharp vertical cutoff. The cutoff falls just below the side mirrors and rear window when following other motorists. The BMW is pretty spartan on cluster lighting, a proper hue for night driving (redish,) and I keep it fairly dim. Great setup for night visibility.
But people HATE HIDs. I get flashed almost every time I drive, particularly in the country where traffic is sparse. People don't like the white light, never mind that they are completely above the HID cutoff whereas they would be flooded with warm yellow scatter from my GMC truck at a much farther distance.
I usually resist the urge to blast them back and I'm a fairly considerate person so that bugs me about HIDs.
The last two new cars I bought were a 2003 Lancer Evo VIII and a 2010 BMW 335xi. Both Came with HID lights from the factory that were pretty impressive. The Evo VIII had razor-sharp cutoff and no hot spots. Perfect. The BMW (believe it or not) isn't as good.
I kind of thought all new cars would have HID lights by now.
On the dimming interior lights. I'd like to shoot the dumbberkeley taht decided the highbeam indicator does not get dimmed with the cluster in fords.
I'm driving in the middle of berkeley all with my brights on for a reason, but have to drive one handed and use the other to block the highbeam indicator as it's glowing so brightly I cannot see where I am going...
(2008 ford escape, 2012 ford mustang, 2013 ford edge, 2014 ford f150...)
Tyler H wrote: But people HATE being blinded.
FTFY. Light color and cutoff pattern is like mag racing for lights...Totally irrelevant and meaningless if the actual glare still causes physical discomfort to oncoming eyes. Don't assume that just because there is a sharp 'apparent' cutoff between the extremely high intensity lower light pattern and and the lower intensity upper light pattern, that the lower intensity light might not still be more uncomfortably bright to oncoming eyes. If this is a relatively common occurrence, Occam's razor would indicate that 'they' are probably not the problem.
Tyler H wrote: But people HATE HIDs. I get flashed almost every time I drive, particularly in the country where traffic is sparse. People don't like the white light, never mind that they are completely above the HID cutoff whereas they would be flooded with warm yellow scatter from my GMC truck at a much farther distance. I usually resist the urge to blast them back and I'm a fairly considerate person so that bugs me about HIDs.
Probably the biggest reason you get flashed a lot is terrain. If everyone was on the same level, and there were no road undulations, you'd be fine, but your car hits a bump, or your on a slightly crested surface, and now your sharp cutoff has other people think that you're flashing your lights at them, or your brights are on.
When that happens to me in her Impala, I just give them a little blink of the high beam so that they know that yes, these are the lows.
My wife's Volvo C30 came with the optional "turning" headlights, the lights physically move with the steering wheel. Very nice setup, much better than my S60.
Driven5 wrote:Tyler H wrote: But people HATE being blinded.FTFY. Light color and cutoff pattern is like mag racing for lights...Totally irrelevant and meaningless if it still causes physical discomfort to oncoming eyes. Don't assume that just because there is a sharp 'apparent' cutoff between the extremely high intensity lower light pattern and and the lower intensity upper light pattern, that the lower intensity light might not still be uncomfortably bright to oncoming eyes. If this is a relatively common occurrence, Occam's razor would indicate that 'they' are probably not the problem.
When you only pass a car every five minutes, then the next oncoming vehicle sucks for most people. Occam's Razor and Statistics tells me that 1 out of every 20 people is pissed off at the world and looking for an excuse to be triggered.
Different colored lights is apparently one of many things in their catalog....it's right between 'who the hell does he think HE is tryin to pass ME?' and 'driving a furrin car.'
I sometimes wonder what the fascination is with such a sharp cutoff. I would rather see (on low beam) some very bright and useful light low, with tons of side spill, with a dimmer area somewhat above where the "cutoff" is. Enough light to see a little bit of stuff, but still manageable for oncoming traffic. People think that oncoming traffic should have "no glare", but c'mon, glare is a part of life, and a little won't kill you.
But then, I also use oncoming vehicles' lights to make sure that there's nothing between us.
Keith Tanner wrote:SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: I don't know, Dodge could put Subaru to shame with their pickups from the last 20 yearsIt's why every Dodge pickup runs around with the fogs on, they're actually better headlights than the headlights.
I'm quite certain my OEM smilies on my 1985 e30 (smilies are from a '91) have far better light output than the STi HIDs that I retrofitted to my WRX. The WRX lights are dreadful, almost embarrasingly so. And they were even worse when stock halogens.
I was thinking about a BRZ and a coworker has one and the first thing I asked him about his was "how are the headlights?"
snailmont5oh wrote: I sometimes wonder what the fascination is with such a sharp cutoff. I would rather see (on low beam) some very bright and useful light low, with tons of side spill, with a dimmer area somewhat above where the "cutoff" is. Enough light to see a little bit of stuff, but still manageable for oncoming traffic. People think that oncoming traffic should have "no glare", but c'mon, glare is a part of life, and a little won't kill you. But then, I also use oncoming vehicles' lights to make sure that there's nothing between us.
Problem is, when you're getting more light in your face from the oncoming vehicles putting more light above the cutoff, your pupils constrict and now you need more light to see. And the vicious cycle begins...
As a note, US DOT spec headlights actually require a minimum amount of light above the cutoff (even when it's a sharp one) to light up overhead highway signs. ECE spec lights have less light up there. It's noticeable if you're alone on a highway at night on low beam. With ECE lights, the overhead signs don't really reflect anything. The roadside signs do get lit by the kick-up in the right side of the cutoff though.
car39 wrote: My wife's Volvo C30 came with the optional "turning" headlights, the lights physically move with the steering wheel. Very nice setup, much better than my S60.
That's an option on some (most? all?) Mazdas, too. If it's done well, you don't really notice - the light is just there when you need it. I like it.
I did a HID retrofit on my truck. My god the difference. (I tried wo/ projectors first, not good)
I get good distance, and a lot of light, but like someone else said its spread, at dusk its almost hard to see since there isnt a giant bright spot in front of the car. I adjusted them so that the cutoff is below the trunk line on a sedan (think corolla) I haven't been flashed ever, and they are lovely.
I see a ton of swap or people driving with a huge puddle of light right in front of the car. This kills your distance night vision....
I drive a lot of back roads and whatnot, they are great. I generally leave them on low and throw my driving lights on for more distance fill.
Projector in a halogen bowl.
Tyler H wrote: When you only pass a car every five minutes, then the next oncoming vehicle sucks for most people.
Yes, but obviously some more so than others.
Duke wrote:Toyman01 wrote: As someone who drives a fair amount at night, I'd like to see cheap Ebay retrofit HIDs banned. They throw entirely too much light down the road and many systems seem to do so indiscriminately.That's the real problem, not HIDs themselves.
It's HIDs. Toyotas in particular have the most obnoxious ones.
Keith Tanner wrote: For the pedants, I shall expand my statement. More light, properly distributed and used under appropriate conditions, is always better. Poor light patterns are undesirable.
+1
This is actually why I loved the headlights in my Golf. They didn't light up the road at all. They did, however, throw light in the right places so that you could see objects/debris/stuff you actually NEED to see.
The big problem with having a big bright spot on the road 50 feet front of the driver is that it trains the driver to look 50 feet ahead. You should be looking at the horizon. You can't see the horizon if you have a big bright spot 50 feet in front if you...
snailmont5oh wrote: I sometimes wonder what the fascination is with such a sharp cutoff.
It's all about the general idea that you're not being a d-bag to the other people on the road.
Driven5 wrote:Tyler H wrote: When you only pass a car every five minutes, then the next oncoming vehicle sucks for most people.Yes, but obviously some more so than others.
Fair point, but I also experienced this with both an IS300 and MINI with HIDs. Without a separate lamp for high beams like with halogen, there is no proof-positive someone is bright-lighting you. Maybe it's a regional / demographic specific phenomena?
I try not to return fire. 
If anyone wants a lesson in offensive lighting, do a Chumpcar night race.
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