Let's talk wrecking at the track.

Or rather, avoiding these situations. Let's get the "duh" statements out of the way shall we. "Don't track if you can't afford to bend it!" And "Sometimes it's unavoidable".

Now, some questions about this since I've never been involved in one. Would rather you A) take the off track vacation, nearly ensuring no more fun that day. Or B) stay on track and try to avoid the madness ahead by being slow and nimble?

Of course these two scenarios are assuming that both are possible options at the split second you get to make the choice. Sometimes only one choice is available.

Also, is there anything you guys practice to sharpen reflexes before being in this circumstance? I play Iracing, and it seems I've had better success staying on track and slowing and risking collision rather than the assured OFF and then a pit to repair.

As one who got t-boned when the car next to me spun a couple of years ago I vote A without hesitation. You forgot option C though, go along for the ride and do a lot of swearing afterwards. That was my option at the time, there was nothing I could do in my situation.

Look ahead to the next corner, and not at the bumper of the car you are fighting with. If you can figure thay out you can go faster and wreck way less.

So I realize Iracing isn't real life, and while a Sim, it isn't realistic in that the pucker factor is not there at all, but it has seemed like slowing a bit and attempting to drive through the fray has actually been working. Risky. In one circle track race my ish got flipped more times than "the big one" at NASCAR. But in Miata spec it's seemed to work for me. When I try to avoid the mess I get destroyed. Not sure anyone here has a lot of experience in this.(God I'd hope not!)

Had to look at his bumper, it was heading right towards me. :) The other option was armco, I figured the Alpha was the lesser of two evils.

Although an off is usually only suspension bits bent. As long as you don't hit a wall you shouldn't have body damage. Where as asphalt considerably ups the frame damage.

Are you talking about track days, or are you talking about wheel-to-wheel racing?

Car-to-car contact at a track day, IMHO, is inexcusable. There's just no reason for it, and in the 50+ track days that I've done, I can really only think of one or two instances in which I've seen it happen.

Car-to-wall (or worse, rollovers) happen more frequently at track days, but 90% of those cases are caused by the driver doing something stupid, so are fundamentally under your own control. The last 10% are mechanical failures, which are somewhat less so.

In a wheel-to-wheel race then every situation is different and it totally depends on the vehicle positions and speeds, track surface, proximity of walls, hard-packed-dirt vs mud off course, etc. I wouldn't try to base real-world decisions on the damage prediction engine in a game/sim, that's really not what it's for.

Look far ahead. Plan an exit strategy for every corner when you are learning the track. Expect the unexpected.

In 20 years of driving, instructing and racing tin tops I've only had one real crash w2w racing when the front control arm broke off in an enduro and caused a roll cage testing sequence to initiate. I've obviously had contact during races and been off in the weeds a few times thanks to oil, an ill timed shove in the back/side but only one time that counted as a crash (a doozy too). I like to think that the advice in the 1st sentence above has a lot to do with that - but I've watched a car come across the track and clean a pile of cars right out line in front of me and there was nothing any of them could do.

It can happen. Here is the incident I'm thinking of from Isi's car. I'm chasing right behind him in the #54 car. My good friend Scott is in #31 white E36 that misses it by inches.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/2gykx2f2b_A

I have always been taught by my instructors to aim where the accident is happening, as that is the place that is is essentially guaranteed NOT to be when you get there. Also, dont look at what you are afraid of hitting. Look where you want to be. Some unconscious part of us directs the out of control car towards what we are looking at.

Having done a ton of LeMons races, I've seen all kinds of E36 M3 on the track...pretty much every shift I'll see contact, an off track, or both. Some happen right in front of my face. I probably shouldn't say anything, because I'll jinx myself, but I've only been actually hit once. In that situation, I got rear ended while in traffic, nothing I could do there.

The key, as someone has mentioned, is looking far ahead. Yeah, I see the car right in front of me, but I'm also looking up, scanning all over to see what's going on and anticipate what might happen. I run lap times a couple of seconds slower than some of my teammates. It's partly because I flat out don't have the skills they do (I have no clue how to heel/toe), but I also tend to be conservative. They jokingly call me "Good Christian Motoring". I'd rather give up a second a lap and bring the car back in one piece than come back on the rollback. If I'm in a pack of cars 3 wide approaching a corner, I'll be the one to lift. I'd rather give up the spot and come out the other side in one piece. Looking ahead and scanning the track has allowed me multiple times to calmly slow down as moron in front of me goes spinning off track, then slides back on track right in front of me. If that's not possible, then hell yeah, if possible, I'm going 4 off into the grass instead of hitting the car.

So really, my answer is B. Slow and nimble. Frankly, in endurance racing, turning steady and consistent laps can get you a win. An off track, spin, contact can lose you a race. I'm out there to go as fast as I can and have fun...and bring it back the way I got it.

In reply to Klayfish:

My man, best post all day. You win.

As a corner worker, off-track excursions have far more potential to get ugly than on-track contact. There's something magical about a grass and dirt surface that's never graded or repaired that leads people to find the nearest wall or re-enter the track in an uncontrolled fashion.

Slow down using pavement first. Then off-road only if necessary. All bets are off in the heat of the moment but please, don't scream LEEROY JENKINS before aiming it off the track.

Trackmouse wrote: In reply to Klayfish: My man, best post all day. You win.

Thanks boss. Oh...and it helps to race in the same group over and over, you get to learn who the shiny happy drivers are...

Look far ahead. Avoid object fixation. You are not racing for a big payday, so give a lift if things are getting stupid. Try to learn the characteristics of the other drivers. Don't try to out brake a well driven 911. Be aware of the blue flag. An early RX7 will almost always spin if you push them into a corner hard, so pay attention to them.

2 wheels off, take a break. 4 wheels off and you need a tow back in, take the rest of the day. Metal on metal where it doesn't leave a mark, watch for flags. Metal on Metal where it costs somebody money, you're probably going to have a lot of words coming your way. If you're racing Nascar, might as well put somebody in a wall, since it's 50/50 that you'll even get a penalty.

I've been in the first two positions, and my advice for those has kept me out of real trouble.

Your mind needs to be a step ahead of your body at all times. I've avoided plowing through a 944 that spun in front of me by going off the opposite side of the track (in a controlled fashion) because I just knew he was going to finish his spin back on the middle of the tarmac. Sure as E36 M3, he did, and while there was enough track to get by him by the time he stopped, I had a wide margin on the grass.

I'm not sure I agree with the "just go slow" philosophy.

When running shorter sprint races like the video above you are flat out for anywhere from 20-45 minutes depending on the venue. To win you must defend or challenge at every opportunity and drive 10/10ths all the time. Cruising around is a waste of why you are there. But, looking far ahead, keeping a mental track of your 360, anticipating outcomes... all still work. So does having an exit strategy for every corner so if things go wrong you can still take the car home in one piece.

Certainly in endurance racing you don't need every lap to be a qualifying lap but you do have a target pace and if you are competing... you want to give yourself a chance to win. Others might be pushing very hard to re-gain time and make a mistake that costs you parts so ... you still have to stay frosty and do all the things listed above. You aren't really safer off the pace than in the hunt mixing it up because people will move you out of the way if you are slowing them up. It's not right, or cool... but they will. So...

Drive fast, watch your 360, take reasonable chances!

Cactus wrote: 2 wheels off, take a break

This is a fine policy for HPDE but dropping a wheel or even using the grass is not even a reason to lift when racing. There is a difference between "OOPs I went off" and compensating for poor traffic position by using the runoff or grass a little.

My general rule is at the first mental mistake, not necessarily causing an issue, I say it aloud to myself. If I make another I'll back down a few 10th of a second for a lap or two and regroup, focus. Heat, fatigue or just pushing too hard when the juices aren't flowing can really affect performance and sometimes you just have to settle for 5th when the car had a podium in it but it's hard to concede that to yourself. It took me a long time to become methodical and not just go-go-go all the time. Actually it took heat stroke during a red flag at Summit Point to drive that point home.

I know that I've been lucky to avoid any major contact while racing. I've been doing it off & on for nearly 30 years so I have seen my share of "Oh S##ts" happen in front of me and a few behind me. Every time I've avoided contact. I can't say why except I've been lucky? Actually in many cases I have been able to predict that something bad might happen as cars jockeyed for position in front of me. I've been doing this long enough that I can tell a good move from a bad move that has little change of succeeding and a big chance of going wrong. When I see a bad move I start to figure what to do if it does go bad.

Now I had had contact with other cars but in most cases it's been due to a "racing incident" and not a loss of control. Well maybe a bit of control. The worst incident was the last race of last year. I was being lapped/overtaken by 3 faster cars. The first two were separated from the third by a few car lengths. I let the first 2 by as we entered a long right had turn, the third car caught up to me near the end of that turn and just before a braking zone for another turn. I did not point him by or give him room as to do so would have slowed both of us more then by letting him by on the exit of this turn. Well he didn't see it that way and tried to dive bomb me as I turned in to the right. His LF fender forward of the front wheel contacted the RR fender of my car behind my RR wheel.

The first thing I knew something was wrong was when my car spun around 180 degrees and I ended up stopped in the middle of the track looking at race traffic coming at me. A quick restart of the engine, select reverse and "get the hell out of there" was done without further incident.

After the race I went to impound to fill out a report on this contact. The other driver who I did not know, only the color of the car, (A Miata, if figures) did apologize to me for the contact. When I explained my side of the story he agreed with me that what I did and what I planned on doing to let him by was the correct action. He being a new driver was just not thinking out the situation, he only wanted to get by me as fast as possible so as not to loose contact with the two cars that I did let by.
Neither car suffered any real damage, or at least damage in the sense that you're talking about a race car.

In reply to Klayfish:

Dame I wish I knew you when the team I was with was looking for another driver.

Huckleberry wrote:

Cactus wrote: 2 wheels off, take a break

This is a fine policy for HPDE but dropping a wheel or even using the grass is not even a reason to lift when racing. There is a difference between "OOPs I went off" and compensating for poor traffic position by using the runoff or grass a little. My general rule is at the first mental mistake,

That's more or less what I meant. If you went off intentionally, it's all good. If you went off because the red mist is making you overdrive, you need to back off at least till you get your head in order.

If you go have to go off in an endurance crapcan, you probably need to take a break anyway.

Here's my perspective as a rookie racer with the BMW CCA CR program.

The club runs under vintage racing rules: it's all about having fun and preserving the machinery. Avoid contact, don't do anything too risky, and be predictable.

To me, that means "avoid damaging other peoples' cars at all costs." If I'm in a situation where things go really wrong, I'll get out of everyone's way. I'll risk totaling my own car before I risk taking out someone else.

So, if there's a huge cluster-berkeley situation unfolding in front of me, I'm going to avoid the scrum. Slow down as much as I can on the asphalt, and drive off the track if that's what I need to do. If I bend the suspension, crack open the oil pan, or even end up in the tire barrier...that's fine.

The guys I share the track with are my friends, and I'm not going to put them at risk. Besides, I'm a 40-something professional with a wife and baby at home. I'm not going to cry myself to sleep because I lost a few places by playing it safe. It's not like F1 recruiters are looking for the next Senna at an amateur race meet in Jersey lol.

I've done it both ways. I've deliberately driven off track to avoid an incident. If you do this you better have a lot of room, you can't brake worth a damn, and don't try to turn back onto the track unless you've scrubbed off a lot of speed. You get a car sideways and it's real easy to roll.
I've also stayed on track and dove for the spot where I figured the two combatants in front of me would not be. Unfortunately, the car behind couldn't slow quickly enough and punted me into some high curbing and I went for an on-track barrel roll, writing off the car. So, I guessed wrong in that case. Every incident is different. The one thing I have noticed is how time seems to slow down in an incident. You make several decisions, or have several thoughts in a few seconds. I have no idea if a SIM racer would experience that phenomenon.

After hours and hours of LeMons racing I can say that the trick that has worked best for me is racing like I'm on my motorcycle. That means always planning 2 escape routes around what could possibly happen in front of me. This also helps keep a 2 hour stint interesting.

If something happens, choose the route that's safest. That doesn't always mean that route is the cheapest mind you.

DaveEstey wrote: After hours and hours of LeMons racing.... If something happens, choose the route that's safest.

But Dave, I think those two statements are mutually exclusive.