$4.00+(and rising) a gallon for gas.... Egypt has made crude break $100 a barrel again....
Lexus requires premium... 2 years ago my wife was dumping $80 a week to 10 days into the IS300 fuel tank... and that was just a 18 mile round trip commute with one or 2 side trips....
In reply to Otto Maddox:
Hmm, come to think of it... all the Honda/Toyota autos we've done were FWD. You might be on to something here.
pres589 wrote: In reply to Xceler8x: How much body add-ons got that orange Holden to look like something more interesting than a 75 cent soap dish? GTO's are just, well, boring as hell to look at that I couldn't see spending the money on one. The one you highlighted actually looks like a sporty car even if it doesn't fix the frankly awkward side profile. How much for those wheels? p.s. 5.7 with a manual was rated much better on fuel and should be cheaper to pick up as well since most guys want the extra cubes and that daft hood of the 6.0 models.
Yer Mom's got a "daft" hood. 
All good points about the GTO. If you want to spend more than 10-12k on the car you could go for a G8 that fixes a lot of the issues brought up including the subjective styling tastes that everyone can never agree on.
My other point being that there are alternatives in the price range of the Lexii we're talking about that are faster and get comparable gas mileage. The GTO/G8 is also arguably as luxury oriented. Dependability is the big question in my mind when comparing a Pontiac to a Lexus.
Difference in mpg between the two motors is:
6.0 17 City 25 Hwy - msnautos data
5.7 17 City 29 Hwy - msnautos data
My daily driver is a '95 LS400, my wife's is a '92 LS400. Bulletproof drive train, the accessories tend to have trouble as they age like any car. But unlike a BMW or Mercedes, we're talking about an alternator getting weak at 240k miles! Both of our cars are very high miles and were very neglected when purchased - hers had a broken timing belt and a salvage title. But upon tearing into the '92, I found that it had the ORIGINAL timing belt and water pump. Further inspection revealed the original plugs, wires, everything. All had a 1992 date code. What BMW would go 200,000 miles with absolutely no maintenance?
They have no sporting pretensions, but the 1995 is fast in a straight line and the 1998-2000 is really fast in a straight line. It will surprise the driver, the passengers, and anyone around you when you punch it. 0-60 in 6.3 seconds is amazing for a car that rides like and has a back seat like a personal limousine. Not earth shattering for today's cars, but you can get a really nice example with around 130k miles for $8000 if you shop around. [edit for clarity: I mean a 2000 model. The 1995 is available for significantly less.]
As far as it being a "copy" of anything - puuhhleeeze. I would hope that the average GRM reader would know better - after all, our favorite car is a "copy" of a British roadster. Except it does everything better than the Brits ever did - just like the Lexus. An LS400 is everything a German car wishes it could be.
The 1995-1997 models do have a finicky starter. But again, this is a problem that occurs once after 150k+ miles. Mine went intermittent at around 170k and I replaced it. That's the only work I have "had" to do on my car in 4 years - and again, that was a car with a ton of miles on it, neglected, bought at the bottom of the value curve. I paid $3500 for it when the wholesale book value was close to $8000.
Sorry to ramble - but I believe the LS400 is an ideal daily driver if you want a luxury car. It doesn't corner that great, and it only gets around 19 city, 25 hwy mpg, but it'll seat four very tall people in supreme comfort and is dead nuts reliable. Turn off the traction control and you can do burnouts 'till your tires pop. (Unfortunately you'll need to do a brake stand as they do NOT come with a limited slip diff.) They're not all that heavy compared to modern cars, at around 3600 pounds curb weight. For a car this size, that's pretty light.
Personally, I prefer the LS400 for looks and speed over the LS430. The LS430 is heavier, has way more features, and is slower. All of them have amazing stereos, for factory units.
Any specific questions? Feel free to ask. I'll stop rambling now. ;-)
Edit: forgot to add: Curtis sees only the problem vehicles. The Aisin 4-speed transmission in the LS400 is bulletproof. Both our cars are on the originals, one at 180k miles, the other at 240k miles. No problems. Volvo used it in the 960 and didn't have any problems, either.
dculberson wrote: As far as it being a "copy" of anything - puuhhleeeze. I would hope that the average GRM reader would know better - after all, our favorite car is a "copy" of a British roadster. Except it does everything better than the Brits ever did - just like the Lexus. An LS400 is everything a German car wishes it could be.
Thank you. I was trying to figure out how to respond to that and you put it into words better than I could.
"Everything" might be a stretch, but in the end, anything the "pretenders" lack in dynamics, prestige, or "brand history," they make up for in value for money.
In reply to dculberson:
So, is there anything to be done to firm up the handling/cornering. I do enjoy spirited driving out here on the windy country roads. I'm assuming the G35 and the 3 series coming ready to be thrown around. Is there a better handling 4 door lexus with a v8? Just how anemic is the 6 cylinder sporty lexus...I'm definately never going to add forced induction.
I like the G35 and it seems perfect for what you want. I would seriously suggest going and looking at one. It doesn't seem quite as good as a BMW but you don't have to deal with the BMW cooling system problems.
rogerbvonceg wrote:dculberson wrote: As far as it being a "copy" of anything - puuhhleeeze. I would hope that the average GRM reader would know better - after all, our favorite car is a "copy" of a British roadster. Except it does everything better than the Brits ever did - just like the Lexus. An LS400 is everything a German car wishes it could be.Thank you. I was trying to figure out how to respond to that and you put it into words better than I could. "Everything" might be a stretch, but in the end, anything the "pretenders" lack in dynamics, prestige, or "brand history," they make up for in value for money.
The difference is that Mazda came right out and said "Here's the modern iteration of the classic British Roadster". They didn't just shamlessly copy it. I'll admit, Lex, Toyota has disguised the copies much better but if you look at them from a stylistic standpoint, the way lines flow and converge and the like, they are still looking to Germany. And I've spend some time in an LS (never owned one though) and currently own the German LS and I can say, the German feels much, much more solid than the big Toyota, has been stone reliable (getting near 270K on it) and feels much more like a single chunk of billit than anything to come out of Asia, ever.
The Toyota is a nice car, sure. But not only is it cheap to copy something else that's been on the road for years, but when you do that and still can't improve on it I have no respect or interest.
Afterall, the Miata is popular why? Not because it's the same thing as an MG. No, it's popular because it's everything the MG was (inexpensive, tossable, fun to drive, not short on power etc.) and more importantly, it's everything the MG wasn't; reliable, currently available in no short supply.
[flame suit on]
Yeah, and Lexus totally screwed up when they copied the 3 Series--they gave the IS 300 a proper double-wishbone suspension.
That's gonna leave a mark.
In reply to czracer:
There's some stuff you can do to an LS400 to make it handle, but honestly you would probably be better served with a different car unless it really speaks to you. (Yes, though I do love my LS, I'm willing to say it's not perfect for all situations!) A 3 series does come ready to throw around, a 328is or E36 M3 will serve you well but will break more often than the Lexus. A GS300 or GS400 will be a more sporty Lexus but still won't be as tossable as the 3 series. The GS400 is V8 powered and is reasonably fast (0-60 in 5.8sec or so); it's basically a four-door Supra with an aluminum V8.
Now, the LS isn't horrible to drive on curvy roads, it's just not going to inspire the confidence that a smaller, lighter car would. I consider the LS to be a modern version of a 60's American full size car. It has plenty of power, and is composed around turns but a bit too soft for full on attack mode in the mountains. Adding a bigger rear sway bar would help, as would going to coil overs (JIC makes a set that gets good reviews, it's around $1700 on eBay. Tein also makes a set, it's a little cheaper. Ksports didn't seem as favorably reviewed) and a good set of summer wheels and tires. They come with plenty of brakes. (12.5" rotors with 4-piston aluminum calipers, monoblock in the 1998-2000.) I'm sure you would then have a really fun car to drive, but I tend to lean towards buying a car that fits the purpose so haven't done these mods myself. I've been thinking about a 540i but just can't stomach the parts costs.
The 6 cylinder sporty Lexus isn't anemic, it just isn't quite as fast as the 8. Neither one is going to set land speed records but they certainly have "adequate" power.
@DrBoost: Well, obviously the market and repair surveys have spoken and said the opposite of what you believe. Mercedes ranks near bottom of the barrel for reliability, competing with Audi and BMW for dubious honors. Lexus has always scored at or near the top on pretty much all quality surveys, both initial and long term. And they outsell Mercedes and BMW by a lot.
I do not believe that a Lexus is any more of a Mercedes copy than any other large luxury car. And even if it was, I don't believe that makes it any less of a car than it is. I tend to view a car in terms of the overall experience for me, not in light of any mystique or smell that the manufacturer may try to sell. So if it's a good car, I love it. And the LS is a good car. It's honest - it doesn't try to be anything that it isn't. (i.e. any sporting claims or the like.) My view is that the Lexus is an iteration of the classic big v8 rwd sedan that everyone has made. Toyota finally decided to do it, and they blew everyone out of the water with it. If you don't think so, then explain why it does so well in all metrics. (Sales, satisfaction, reliability, resale value, etc etc.)
It's obvious you like your Mercedes and that's fine. But there's no need to hate on other cars just because you like yours.
I forgot to add: the real killer for me in terms of "sporting" driving with the LS400 is the lack of a manual transmission option. They've never sold with one, so doing a conversion is troublesome, difficult, and expensive. I consider a manual to be pretty important to sporty driving, and really miss it on long trips. Not enough to get one of the rare and trouble prone large sedans that do come with manuals (ie. the previously mentioned BMW 540i) but it's definitely missed.
Oh, and DrBoost, what kind of Merc do you have?
dculberson wrote: As far as it being a "copy" of anything - puuhhleeeze. I would hope that the average GRM reader would know better - after all, our favorite car is a "copy" of a British roadster. Except it does everything better than the Brits ever did - just like the Lexus.
The Miata is totally not better then a Brit. That's right I said it so sue me. 
Just like the Lexus isn't better then a BMW.
Hee hee. A Miata doesn't have the soul of an Austin Healey, but since in most cars soul is measured in oil leaks and electrical fires, I'm okay with that.
dculberson wrote: In reply to czracer: There's some stuff you can do to an LS400 to make it handle, but honestly you would probably be better served with a different car unless it really speaks to you. (Yes, though I do love my LS, I'm willing to say it's not perfect for all situations!) A 3 series does come ready to throw around, a 328is or E36 M3 will serve you well but will break more often than the Lexus. A GS300 or GS400 will be a more sporty Lexus but still won't be as tossable as the 3 series. The GS400 is V8 powered and is reasonably fast (0-60 in 5.8sec or so); it's basically a four-door Supra with an aluminum V8. Now, the LS isn't horrible to drive on curvy roads, it's just not going to inspire the confidence that a smaller, lighter car would. I consider the LS to be a modern version of a 60's American full size car. It has plenty of power, and is composed around turns but a bit too soft for full on attack mode in the mountains. Adding a bigger rear sway bar would help, as would going to coil overs (JIC makes a set that gets good reviews, it's around $1700 on eBay. Tein also makes a set, it's a little cheaper. Ksports didn't seem as favorably reviewed) and a good set of summer wheels and tires. They come with plenty of brakes. (12.5" rotors with 4-piston aluminum calipers, monoblock in the 1998-2000.) I'm sure you would then have a really fun car to drive, but I tend to lean towards buying a car that fits the purpose so haven't done these mods myself. I've been thinking about a 540i but just can't stomach the parts costs. The 6 cylinder sporty Lexus isn't anemic, it just isn't quite as fast as the 8. Neither one is going to set land speed records but they certainly have "adequate" power. @DrBoost: Well, obviously the market and repair surveys have spoken and said the opposite of what you believe. Mercedes ranks near bottom of the barrel for reliability, competing with Audi and BMW for dubious honors. Lexus has always scored at or near the top on pretty much all quality surveys, both initial and long term. And they outsell Mercedes and BMW by a lot. I do not believe that a Lexus is any more of a Mercedes copy than any other large luxury car. And even if it was, I don't believe that makes it any less of a car than it is. I tend to view a car in terms of the overall experience for me, not in light of any mystique or smell that the manufacturer may try to sell. So if it's a good car, I love it. And the LS is a good car. It's honest - it doesn't try to be anything that it isn't. (i.e. any sporting claims or the like.) My view is that the Lexus is an iteration of the classic big v8 rwd sedan that everyone has made. Toyota finally decided to do it, and they blew everyone out of the water with it. If you don't think so, then explain why it does so well in all metrics. (Sales, satisfaction, reliability, resale value, etc etc.) It's obvious you like your Mercedes and that's fine. But there's no need to hate on other cars just because you like yours.
I disliked Lexus long before I got my Mercedes. I'm a biased prick, I can admit that. I'm just not a fan of Toyota ouside the MR2, FJ40 (the original one) and a few Supras. When I was standing at the Detroit Int'l Auto show when Lexus and Infinity were lauched I was amazed that there was a new 2-year old Mercedes on the stand. I know you don't understand but I don't have respect for a company that simply copies something else soo closely. I'm sure the 'yota is a fine car but when you compare it to the car the LS copied, not the new gen MB products there is no comparison in terms of build quality (not quality parts though MB had that is spades, I'm talking about the structure and all that).
In reply to DrBoost:
Well, perhaps you could say you don't like the LS. No need to indict the entire Toyota/Lexus lineup based on one model.
DrBoost wrote:dculberson wrote: In reply to czracer: There's some stuff you can do to an LS400 to make it handle, but honestly you would probably be better served with a different car unless it really speaks to you. (Yes, though I do love my LS, I'm willing to say it's not perfect for all situations!) A 3 series does come ready to throw around, a 328is or E36 M3 will serve you well but will break more often than the Lexus. A GS300 or GS400 will be a more sporty Lexus but still won't be as tossable as the 3 series. The GS400 is V8 powered and is reasonably fast (0-60 in 5.8sec or so); it's basically a four-door Supra with an aluminum V8. Now, the LS isn't horrible to drive on curvy roads, it's just not going to inspire the confidence that a smaller, lighter car would. I consider the LS to be a modern version of a 60's American full size car. It has plenty of power, and is composed around turns but a bit too soft for full on attack mode in the mountains. Adding a bigger rear sway bar would help, as would going to coil overs (JIC makes a set that gets good reviews, it's around $1700 on eBay. Tein also makes a set, it's a little cheaper. Ksports didn't seem as favorably reviewed) and a good set of summer wheels and tires. They come with plenty of brakes. (12.5" rotors with 4-piston aluminum calipers, monoblock in the 1998-2000.) I'm sure you would then have a really fun car to drive, but I tend to lean towards buying a car that fits the purpose so haven't done these mods myself. I've been thinking about a 540i but just can't stomach the parts costs. The 6 cylinder sporty Lexus isn't anemic, it just isn't quite as fast as the 8. Neither one is going to set land speed records but they certainly have "adequate" power. @DrBoost: Well, obviously the market and repair surveys have spoken and said the opposite of what you believe. Mercedes ranks near bottom of the barrel for reliability, competing with Audi and BMW for dubious honors. Lexus has always scored at or near the top on pretty much all quality surveys, both initial and long term. And they outsell Mercedes and BMW by a lot. I do not believe that a Lexus is any more of a Mercedes copy than any other large luxury car. And even if it was, I don't believe that makes it any less of a car than it is. I tend to view a car in terms of the overall experience for me, not in light of any mystique or smell that the manufacturer may try to sell. So if it's a good car, I love it. And the LS is a good car. It's honest - it doesn't try to be anything that it isn't. (i.e. any sporting claims or the like.) My view is that the Lexus is an iteration of the classic big v8 rwd sedan that everyone has made. Toyota finally decided to do it, and they blew everyone out of the water with it. If you don't think so, then explain why it does so well in all metrics. (Sales, satisfaction, reliability, resale value, etc etc.) It's obvious you like your Mercedes and that's fine. But there's no need to hate on other cars just because you like yours.I disliked Lexus long before I got my Mercedes. I'm a biased prick, I can admit that. I'm just not a fan of Toyota ouside the MR2, FJ40 (the original one) and a few Supras. When I was standing at the Detroit Int'l Auto show when Lexus and Infinity were lauched I was amazed that there was a new 2-year old Mercedes on the stand. I know you don't understand but I don't have respect for a company that simply copies something else soo closely. I'm sure the 'yota is a fine car but when you compare it to the car the LS copied, not the new gen MB products there is no comparison in terms of build quality (not quality parts though MB had that is spades, I'm talking about the structure and all that).
What car was the LS copying? I'm curious... i can't really think of one.
Commentators at the time said the original LS400 took some styling ideas from Mercedes. Of course within a few years of Lexus emerging, Mercedes completely abandonded their whole way of building cars and their entire business model in a desperate atttempt to emulate the Japanese. I will say that the Germans are often still on the forefront of coming up with new technology, but sometimes I wonder if that is because they aren't afraid to come out with technology that is half baked.
Otto Maddox wrote: Commentators at the time said the original LS400 took some styling ideas from Mercedes. Of course within a few years of Lexus emerging, Mercedes completely abandonded their whole way of building cars and their entire business model in a desperate atttempt to emulate the Japanese. I will say that the Germans are often still on the forefront of coming up with new technology, but sometimes I wonder if that is because they aren't afraid to come out with technology that is half baked.
But which mercedes? The closest ones i can think of would be like the E190/E300, and the similarities are pretty well.... small.
Really? How about a W124 Mercedes (1986)
and a 1992 Lexus LS
Or......
Even things like tail lights and door handles are nearly closed of older MB's
Then there's the Lexus RX and MB M-class.
Yeah i think those were what i was thinking.... I don't know... there's lots of little differences. Basic car shape is something that's pretty hard to call a rip off or not. Every company has something that looks similar to the others. (Exceptions being exotics)
As for RX vs. M-class... quick research will show that it wasn't really possible for Lexus to copy the M-Class. Both cars/trucks/suv/crossover crap debuted at the same time. Which is also probably why they look nothing alike.
And yes, MB changed the whole business model they had, and that's sad. When the W124 was in the incubation stages MB had the mindset that the car will be built to a certain set of standards, no matter what. The timing of the launch and the price are flexable but the car on offer is not. That's why my 1992 300 stickered for 42 THOUSAND DOLLARS. Holy crap. Really, as far as ammenities, it's not much higher than a Taurus. But the build quality is second to none. But After Lexus and Infinity came out they realized they couldn't sell many $42,000 Ford or Lincoln (level) cars. When the E class came out the business model was the time-frame and price are firm, the car itself is felxable. We see how far the star has fallen since then. I applaud Toyota for being able to build cars that are consistantly reliable but they are just sooooooo boring, uninspiring, and unoriginal. If Lexus would have came on the scene with a car that was their design and had this much sucess I would have been impressed. Any car company with the funds can buy the car they are targeting and copy it at a cheaper price.
Anyone who has driven one has to admit, the MB products are incredibly solid. mine feels like it has another quarter-million miles left in it. In fact, I read somewhere that almost 80% of the W123 cars sold world wide are still on the road. I wonder how many LS 400s are still out there.
I hadn't thought about the SC430 looking like an Audi TT; that picture is pretty hilarious! It makes them look almost identical. In person they look nothing alike, though; the TT is far and away the prettier car. The SC430 is a turd. Hideous.
I do think the LS is reminiscent of a lot of styling cues from Mercedes, but I don't think they're any more of a copy than most cars out there. Going back to the Miata, just look at a 1st gen Elan and you can see 90% of what Mazda was going for.
Anyway, I didn't intend to clutter up this thread. Czracer, if you're willing to modify a car and drive an automatic I bet you'd be happy with an LS. If not, give a GS or an IS a try. But while they are all excellent cars, none of them is particularly light or tossable.
Edit: I forgot you were coming from a Wrangler. Any of the RWD Lexuses will handle like they're on rails compared to that. And be way more comfortable, to boot! The inline 6 is a solid engine. If you want a manual, your options are limited: IS300 (4-door) or SC300 (2-door). The SC is a more softly sprung, higher optioned non-turbo Supra MKIV. Same platform, same engine. If you don't mind an automatic, you'll have an easier time finding one. If you want four doors, that's the IS, GS or LS series. GS and LS are automatic only. Later GS has paddle (or button, actually) shifted automatic, but that's not the same is it? The GS is smaller and more sporty than the LS, but is still more a touring car than sport sedan. But there are good true coilover kits for them, too.
Do you have a strong preference for auto vs manual?
In reply to DrBoost:
I agree with you on the old Mercedes. And I lament the fact that the introduction of Lexus caused MB to change so drastically. With cars like the old 300, they really had something special.
As for your last question, I bet the longevity of the early 90s LS400 easily rivals a Mercedes of the same vintage. Of course that is just idle speculation based on the number of them I see around my little part of the world.
Based on anecdotal and forum evidence, I know that 1st gen LS400s are among the toughest and longest lived cars around. Toyota may not have excitement, but they have good engineers, and they really applied themselves to that car.
My wife's 92 is just incredible - 240k miles, it's got a rebuilt salvage title so it's been in at least one serious accident, and it had absolutely no maintenance done for the first 15 years of its life. After resuscitating it from the broken timing belt (which had lasted for 2.4x its rated life), the only work I've had to do on it is the alternator. There are many thousands of them out there with over 200k miles on them. These are easily 500k mile cars with nothing but regular maintenance.
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