It's not all doom and gloom for manual lovers. The take rates can be surprisingly high on enthusiast cars that offer them. Enough so that manufacturers seem to recognize that if they don't offer it and a competitor does, they'll lose out on a decent chunk of those sales. So manuals are certainly not dead yet...
https://www.motor1.com/features/747196/manual-transmission-sales-2024/
Not dead, but definitely pretty niche at this point.
It seems quite strange to me that the only manual cars sold by GM are Cadillacs.
The number of actual sports cars is dwindling as well as the offers of manual transmissions with them. I don't think these #'s mean much in the grand scheme of things to manufacturers and offering manual is just a novelty at this point, sadly.
IMO to go the fastest means an automatic now. But to go fast and have fun means 3 pedals
porschenut said:IMO to go the fastest means an automatic now. But to go fast and have fun means 3 pedals
This exactly. I have one in each of my cars. Auto quicker, manual more fun.
That article was pretty interesting but I don't think that the "take rate" is an accurate measure, or at least not an accurate description of what's being measured.
Most of these rates are pre-determined by how many cars the manufacturer is building of each type. Like, when I was shopping for my Elantra N it was tough to find a manual (most were pre-sold before they ever reached a dealer lot) but the automatics were easier to find. It's not a car you can "order" so if the "take rate" was 30% that just means that 30% of the cars Hyundai built were manual. I assume at some level they're looking at data and customer or dealer feedback but it's not like everybody is shopping and just choosing between this or that.
I agree that the manufacturers largely determine how many manuals they sell by what they choose to ship to dealers. Very few people are going to order a manual (if it's even available) and wait months to get it.
I am reminded of a friend's dad who back in the day ordered what I'm pretty sure was a 1978 Chevrolet Monte Carlo brand new with a manual shift. I wonder what the "take rate" on manual trans was on that car? Even back then, it just wasn't the kind of car that you'd ever expect to see a manual trans in.
I have just as much fun in my 911 with PDK as I did with my S2k, my RX7, my Z28 and my GTI.
CrashDummy said:Most of these rates are pre-determined by how many cars the manufacturer is building of each type. Like, when I was shopping for my Elantra N it was tough to find a manual (most were pre-sold before they ever reached a dealer lot) but the automatics were easier to find. It's not a car you can "order" so if the "take rate" was 30% that just means that 30% of the cars Hyundai built were manual. I assume at some level they're looking at data and customer or dealer feedback but it's not like everybody is shopping and just choosing between this or that.
Hm. Perhaps this varies by manufacturer, but for many of them options for the cars on the lot are determined by orders -- it's just that the orders are placed by the dealers based on what they think will sell, not by the end customer.
This is potentially limited by govt regulations. For example, the transmission choice affects the fuel economy, and so the need to meet CAFE requirements may limit how many of each they can make.
1988RedT2 said:It seems quite strange to me that the only manual cars sold by GM are Cadillacs.
Wait, they killed the 3 pedal Cuhmayroh?
In reply to buzzboy :
They just outright killed 'em. 2024 is/was the last year
Blah blah blah, engagement, blah blah blah, in tune with the machine, bla blah blah, i want to be in control blah blah blah.
Know what's fun? Being the fastest in any environment! You think F1 drivers are not having fun? Rally car drivers? Top fuel dragster drivers?
If it helps me get to the timing lights or finish line faster than you, I'll take two pedals all day long.
In reply to vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) :
In a competition series? Sure. That's why the formula ford crowd is going to flappy paddles, and it's been interesting to watch in real time as the cars get upgraded and drivers convert, you get a cool before/after from a number of sources.
Which series are you competing in on the street? For a daily, or a fun street car, I love a manual. And don't care about the quantifiable numbers. Gordan Murray's GMA T50 and T33 agree with me. I'll take three pedals all day long ;).
In reply to Flynlow :
On the street I want my hands where they can do the most good. That's on the steering wheel. I'm not competing with anyone but myself at that point. To be the best driver I can be. Focused on the environment, anticipating obstacles and conflicts, and prepared to act. Simple.
EchoTreeSix said:In reply to buzzboy :
They just outright killed 'em. 2024 is/was the last year
Wasn't there a rumor that the EV Cayman/Boxster were having some kind of battery production issue and they were considering keeping them alive? Or maybe they'll just kill them off anyway and have the EVs delayed.
Interestingly, the soft top Miata has a significantly higher manual take rate than the RF does. That's from a couple of years ago. I don't think the least expensive Sport trim was ever offered in the RF, but very few Sports ever seem to sell.
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Flynlow :
On the street I want my hands where they can do the most good. That's on the steering wheel. I'm not competing with anyone but myself at that point. To be the best driver I can be. Focused on the environment, anticipating obstacles and conflicts, and prepared to act. Simple.
That is great for people who are you! Nothing wrong with what you like.
I am not you, and I prefer the fun that comes with a manual.
I'll take a manual every time. Not just for the engagement, but for the reliability. Autos (and worse yet CVT / DSG etc..) just don't last as long. How many threads do we about automatic's having some sort of issue? Modern ones are full of electronics that are expensive and sometimes unserviceable. Most trans shops just condemn the whole thing and sell you a reman.
I prefer manuals, but the thing that bums me out about most manuals is I don't actually enjoy driving them. So many have poor clutch engagement, unsatisfying shifters, rev hang, the list goes on. So it ends up being I like the idea of them, but the auto is more satisfying because of how UNsatisfying the manual equivalent is in so many automakers.
This is definitely true of most "normal" cars but it's also true of some sports cars. My E36 M3 needed a clutch delay valve, a clutch stop and a short shifter to make it more enjoyable. Before that it felt like a joke.
And I love the Miata shifter but I needed to make changes to the pedal placement to heal and toe. It's probably just because I have big feet but it kinda sucks that even the best driver's cars have manuals that need modifications to make them great.
In reply to CyberEric :
I think you're the first person I've ever read wanting a CDV. Most I know, from back when I still messed with BMWs remove them.
CyberEric said:I prefer manuals, but the thing that bums me out about most manuals is I don't actually enjoy driving them. So many have poor clutch engagement, unsatisfying shifters, rev hang, the list goes on. So it ends up being I like the idea of them, but the auto is more satisfying because of how UNsatisfying the manual equivalent is in so many automakers.
This is definitely true of most "normal" cars but it's also true of some sports cars. My E36 M3 needed a clutch delay valve, a clutch stop and a short shifter to make it more enjoyable. Before that it felt like a joke.
And I love the Miata shifter but I needed to make changes to the pedal placement to heal and toe. It's probably just because I have big feet but it kinda sucks that even the best driver's cars have manuals that need modifications to make them great.
This is a pretty good take.The only cars I would consider in manual for new cars have to have a tune that removes rev hang otherwise it just feels fake, synthetic, and isn't natural at all. You're one of the first to say he wanted a CDV though in a BMW, as most people end up removing those.
In reply to CyberEric :
I'm with z31maniac and BlueSkies on this one. I removed the CDV on my 128i and appreciated the improvement in stop and go driving.
I enjoy the manual in my 128i and my NC Miata. Althought admittedly, I did have to improve the 128i by removing the CDV, putting in a thicker clutch stop, replacing all the shifter bushings and installing a "tall" ZHP knob. By comparison, I've never had to do any such thing to any of my Miata's or S2000's- they were just a pleasure to drive, right out of the box.
I will grant you that some manuals do not drive very well. My wife and I drove both manual and automatic 392 Challengers before buying her Scat Pack. We both agreed the 8-speed ZF autobox was more enjoyable- gearing in the manual was very tall and the whole experience just felt numb. She also had a 6MT 2016 Camaro SS for a while- the shifter itself was fine, but the clutch weight and engagement was rough! I preferred the 10AT version we drove. Same with the last 718 Boxster I drove- the shifter was wonderful, but the clutch engagement was abrupt and nearly impossible to drive smoothly from a stop.
On the other end of the spectrum, my F87 M2 6MT was very enjoyable out of the box. Same with my old FK8 Civic Type R- probably the best cable shifter I've ever had the pleasure of rowing. Come to think of it, most of my old wishbone Honda's were pretty damn good in stock form. Admittedly, I did frequently install slight extensions on my old Hondas, as they helped me ergonomically, but they were a pleasure to shift regardless.
My 2021 Mazda 3 Turbo only comes in a 6AT. In traffic, it does a great job of seamlessly moving me from one place to another and I don't have much of a complaint as a simple people mover around town. We went to the hot springs in Glenwood a month ago. In the mountains, I was not impressed. The damn thing was constantly confused during uphills and was driving me crazy. I found myself wishing for a manual. I put it in manual mode for quite a few sections, but by comparison to an actual manual, it was rubbish.
I think it really depends on the manual in question. Some are rubbish. Others are sublime right out of the box and add an element of fun that their automatic counterparts are missing.
With half your driving effort being devoted to the infotainment center, there is not much attention span left for driving a manual box. Besides, the cellphone in your hand precludes the ability to shift.
That was a mistake, I meant a CDV delete. Absolutely hated the CDV. My 1987 Mazda B2200 had better clutch take up before I nixed that stupid thing. Frankly that B2200 had a pretty great gearbox.
That was my point, I have to do things to almost every MT to make it work for me. Hence, I sometimes prefer autos despite the fact that I actually want a great manual. The closest thing I have come to is a Miata, and even that needed pedal placement adjustments for heal and toe, as I mentioned.
I hated the clutch in the Cayman I drove, felt like mush. It's like this so often for me, guess I'm picky with manuals. I did love the 991 911 I drove, that one was pretty much perfect in every way.
@roninsoldier83, I like the modern Mazda autos when in sport mode (at least in the 3rd gen 3 my dad has), they seem to do what I want all the time. Maybe they changed that though on the newer ones. I like them in manual mode too, even though I have to drive around how slow the shifts are. You can pop them down a gear with the paddle and they mostly do what I want. Again, haven't driven the latest gen.
You'll need to log in to post.
