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irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
2/10/20 6:26 p.m.

 So let's put UTVs, Classing, and Rules aside here - those are a matter for the RXB and people directly involved. For the sake of this thread let's assume RX vehicles, classes, and rules stay exactly as they are right now (insert joke here about SCCA never leaving rules alone). But seriously, this thread is to talk about things that could be done to better "market" rallycross and increase turnout without arguing about changes to the program itself. Of course, much of this stuff also applies to other motorsports, but rallycross is more niche than Solo or HPDE or Chumpcar or whatever, so really needs more marketing.

So here are some of my ideas - some apply to SCCA itself and some to rallycross in general. Please do post your ideas (or improvements on mine) in this thread. Maybe I can consolidate it all at some point and see if anyone outside of GRM wants to read them....

(SCCA) National office: focus on the regions. If I notice one thing skimming quickly through Sportscar magazine or SCCA's main/rallycross websites/facebook page it's that almost all rallycross coverage comes down to a few things:

It's almost all national. Stories about rallycross generally reference nationals. Stories about setup generally reference car(s) or driver(s) that were at nationals. But let's face it, only a small percentage of rallycrosser go to (or really care about) nationals. Like politics, almost all racing is local. Hyping nationals in Iowa does virtually nothing for local turnout or interest. Most locals just want to have a good time, not follow Brianne's or Warren's or Evan's personal racing careers ;)  So a few things SCCA itself could do on that end:

- Publish season-end lists of each region's class champions and what they drive. This could be as easy as 1-2 pages of the mag with a bunch of lists, or could add a short paragraph or photo from each region. IDK how many regions there are, but I can't imagine it would take more than a few pages. Sportscar devotes more than that to stories about Solo2 kart builds now. For many locals, getting a one-line shoutout in a national magazine or website is pretty cool and something to shoot for. It's incentive.  

- Highlight local drivers. We all know the top national drivers are some of the best. But we also all know that there are a lot of extremely good drivers all over the country that can't/won't tow 20 hours to get to Iowa. Each regional RX chair could put together a couple paragraphs and a photo w/car of their top drivers, perhaps. Or some kind of advice from each of these drivers about car setup, driving, tires, or whatever. 

- Do a spotlight on one SCCA rallycross region each issue. Even if it's just one column with a couple paragraphs. Some history, some talk about venues, whatever. Ask the regions to provide them. Most people (even SCCA solo/track people) probably have no idea there is a rallycross region running near them. We run at Summit Point, and when we go over to the main paddock to grab lunch, everyone there seems amazed that there is rallycross going on just across the treeline - they have no idea. 

TECH:

- Highlight local builds. Part of the fun of rallycross is seeing a Comanche win an SR class, or watching stage rally cars or chumpcar builds compete, or watching some of the really unique builds. Sportscar periodically has multi-page articles talking about XX 17-year old girl who dumped $30k into a Mustang and runs HPDE with it, complete with pictures of shiny parts (not that any of that is bad, and that's just a random example, not anything specific). There are plenty of cool rallycross builds out there - many of which get highlighted here on GRM (Nick Drymalski's M3, for instance or Leon's Porsche 914) - but aren't every mentioned by SCCA unless they happen to go to Iowa. Building a car to survive competitive rallycross is every bit as hard (and requires as much creativity) as buildling a Miata to go fast on the track. And lots of opportunity to feature both funky things (Baja bugs, Saabs, whatever) and everyday cars (Civics, Golfs, Subarus). 

- Focus on "cheap cars having fun." Want to be competitive on the track or at Solo? Better have THE right car and THE right tires. Want to be competitive in rallycross - well, you have a much wider selection of random cheap cars you found on craigslist. We've all been beaten at an event by some random car that looks like it can hardly drive. I know I have.  Racing is expensive, but rallycross can be marketed as racing for people who don't have a ton of money to spend. You don't need an Evo or Sti. You can do it in that old 325i or Volvo or Hyundai Accent and be competitive (true story on all of those, even the Accent - Andy Thomas). 

Right now SCCA frequently give extensive coverage to track cars, solo cars, whatever. But it's pretty uncommon to see any rallycross builds.

- Likewise, lots of articles on "picking the right tire for Solo" or things like that. Meanwhile, the recent article about rallycross tires didn't provide any real information at all. It basically just said "picking the right tire is KEY, so pick the tire for the conditions!" DUH. How about a bit more talk about what MAKES the right tire for each type of condition. Those of us who have done this a long time already know, but most newbies have no idea the difference betwen a gravel tire, a grasstrack tire, an all-terrain, etc. 

--

Marketing (national SCCA, local SCCA, rallycrossers in general):  USE THE WEB. ACTIVELY. 

One way we expanded the program in DC over the years was by targeting non-racing forums. From my own end, of course we posted a lot of various BMW forums and facebook groups. On Miata forums. On Honda-tech. On NASIOC. And so on. If you post about rallycross (local events or just general knowledge) on 20 forums, chances area you'll get one person or more from each forum who will come out and see what it's all about. For some clubs, that could double their usual turnout. And yes, it works. Obviously most of the Subaru guys already know about rallycross. But, as an example - a decade ago I could probably look through rallycross standings and find a 10 or 20 e30/e36 BMWs running around the country at most But several of us "BMW people" marketed rallycross hard to the BMW forums and pages. If I was guessing right now, I'd say there must be more than 60 BMWs rallycrossing nationally at this point (our local region usually has 10-15 by itself, and we have ). This can be done with ANY marque/model if you have someone willing to go tell people and be enthusiastic. Most people don't know they can take a stock Civic on cheap snow tires and go rallycross - they assume they have to have a modded Evo or something, with special tires

There are a ton of ways to promote rallycross. Few people look at SCCA's facebook page or website actively, from what I can tell. So just posting stuff there only caters to those who already do it. Be active in social media and forums, both from a national level and from a local level. Even local SCCA pubs can do it. In DC we have the "Straightpipe" online mag that is published by WDCR SCCA every month or two. All the articles are written by locals and it's all pretty ad hoc. But we've made sure to write a rallycross article for EVERY issue for several years now (with photos!) - and while it's hard to tell, we definitely have had some people from the track/HPDE/Solo world show up at our events to either participate or at least check out what it's all about. 

--

So,  those are a few of my own ideas - I know the rest of you also have some good ideas of how you do things or how you've promoted rallycross to grow your own clubs (I know some clubs make event trophies on-the-spot, for instance), so have at it!

 

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/10/20 8:45 p.m.

You might want to reach out to Phil at sportscar and offer to do some of this write-up stuff, you obviously have the experience and ideas. 

The magazine would need someone to write it up because the magazine is far beyond the definition of a skeleton crew. 

I don't think your ideas are bad by any means. 

 

 

MrChaos
MrChaos SuperDork
2/10/20 8:51 p.m.

The local region is running a novice rallycross class with classroom sessions, a skid pad session, how to read the course, etc and actual in car session in both rwd and awd cars provided by the instructors/organizer.

They have an instagram and go to all of the cars and coffee style events for the region and promote the rallycross portion and try to get some of the autocross guys to come out as well. The region rallycross group has its own fb page that the main region fb page links all the time.  The rallycross organizer has a second fb page just for rallycross stuff.

They also have a lot of people that run multiple regions because for most of them its 1.5-3hrs to 2 regions race locations. So they have many people that run multiple and apparently even some of the mid ohio guys come down to some of the etr events.

dxman92
dxman92 HalfDork
2/10/20 9:30 p.m.

Local driver highlights and cheap cars sound really appealing to me.

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
2/10/20 9:41 p.m.
spacecadet said:

You might want to reach out to Phil at sportscar and offer to do some of this write-up stuff, you obviously have the experience and ideas. 

The magazine would need someone to write it up because the magazine is far beyond the definition of a skeleton crew. 

I don't think your ideas are bad by any means. 

 

 

I'd certainly be up for it to some degree, you all know I can write forever lol. I would definitely be happy to do it for our local region (and maybe some neighboring ones that I run with). But definitely would need someone who can coordinate things on a larger scale and has direct access to the different regions' "leadership." I'm not sure I can find the time to do it myself to that degree, honestly. 

And yeah, I know it's easy to think of ideas for other people to do......alot of this stuff is dependent on whether SCCA would be actually willing to devote that kind of space in the magazine (or facebook page, or whatever) to non-national events. Would be interested to know. 

That does bring me to another point that SCCA could do better with online presence. I know a lot of us here like physical magazines, but in this day and age that's not the way to spread the word....

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/10/20 9:43 p.m.

In reply to irish44j :

I'm sending you a pm. 

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
2/10/20 9:45 p.m.
MrChaos said:

The local region is running a novice rallycross class with classroom sessions, a skid pad session, how to read the course, etc and actual in car session in both rwd and awd cars provided by the instructors/organizer.

They have an instagram and go to all of the cars and coffee style events for the region and promote the rallycross portion and try to get some of the autocross guys to come out as well. The region rallycross group has its own fb page that the main region fb page links all the time.  The rallycross organizer has a second fb page just for rallycross stuff.

They also have a lot of people that run multiple regions because for most of them its 1.5-3hrs to 2 regions race locations. So they have many people that run multiple and apparently even some of the mid ohio guys come down to some of the etr events.

Yep, that's largely how we do it as well. Several rallycrossers are regulars at C&C and we usually try to go out and actually compete in the rally/rallycross cars once a season with DC's huge autocross group (250+ entries per event!). 

Like you, we have the "official" DC rallycross FB page (for event announcements and official news) and an "unofficial" group for DC area rallycross and stage rally peopel, which is very active and really the go-to for the information in this area). 

We're similar - a lot of DC folks run with Susquehanna and Blue Mountain Region (when it has events) and try to support neighboring regions when we can. And a lot of the Susquehanna and BMR folks come to our events as well. 

We used to do a "rally school" day (same day as open test and tune) usually taught by a stage rally driver or two - it was not specifically about winning at rallycross, but more about general car control on loose stuff as well as the basics of rally - probably a reason that something like 1/4 of all the peopel who rallycross in DC are also involved in stage rally - either as drivers, codrivers, crew, or volunteers. 

JesseWolfe
JesseWolfe Reader
2/11/20 6:29 a.m.

I don't have much to add to this beyond completely agreeing, in that I'd like to see more people involved in Rx.  I've just bought a car for Rx but haven't been to compete yet.   As many automotive enthusiasts are in NoVa and the DC area, I hope 20' is a great season. 

dropstep
dropstep UltraDork
2/11/20 6:47 a.m.

While I like following the coverage of builds online I couldn't event tell you where the closest rally cross is too me. I can find autocrosses, road courses and drag strips easily. Even off road parks are easier to find then rallycross. That doesn't help new people. 

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
2/11/20 7:13 a.m.
spacecadet said:

You might want to reach out to Phil at sportscar and offer to do some of this write-up stuff, you obviously have the experience and ideas. 

The magazine would need someone to write it up because the magazine is far beyond the definition of a skeleton crew. 

I don't think your ideas are bad by any means. 

 

 

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but they need to do SOMETHING about the magazine. Maybe Irish can breathe some life into it? I'm in favor of that. 

As far as promotion, work of mouth/facebook/instagram is the way we get new people in Texas. Seems to work. 

Dave M
Dave M HalfDork
2/11/20 7:20 a.m.

In reply to irish44j :

DC resident here. I've always loved rally, and yet, I've never done a rallycross event, mostly out of lack of basic education. Here's the basic, basic stuff that's kept me away:


-Cost. How much does it cost? All I know is that rally breaks stuff; so do I need to trailer my crap can to and from the event? Or can I realistically drive my rally car there and back.

-fun-vs-sitting around. Autocross is a lot of sitting around for not much driving time. Is rallycross better?

-Local SCCA website and event classification. When I started HPDE, the regional SCCA website was impossible to understand, as was the event classification - I literally was confused about when and where the HPDE events were. So I went with another group.

-Safety. Is it safe? Real stage rally is dangerous!

-Critical mass. This seems like a chicken and egg issue, but at least in the NASA events I've been going to, there's a clear ladder to racing in popular, affordable classes (944s, e30s, e36s) and popular, less affordable classes (Miata, e46s). It seems like rallycross might be less popular, with less of a clear ladder?

Thanks for starting the thread!

Dave M
Dave M HalfDork
2/11/20 7:23 a.m.

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

The SCCA magazine is good for putting me to sleep. I get into the detailed reports of various open-wheel classes and the zzzzzs come easy.

rothwem
rothwem New Reader
2/11/20 7:31 a.m.

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I've never done rallycross, although it does look like fun.  But would adding more people really make it more fun?  Doesn't less people=more runs? It seems like if it were to get really popular, you'd end up with factory backed guys out there in 100k cars going 100 mph around some farmer's field dirt track.  The fun of rallycross seems to be the grassroots nature of it, with junk cars going sideways around a race course.  

Edit: dang, it won't let me embed a youtube video.  Imagine Ian Malcom from Jurassic Park saying, "your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should"

EvanB
EvanB MegaDork
2/11/20 7:39 a.m.

One of the things that seems like it needs to be stressed when marketing it is that it's not just a bunch of beaters or crap cans. 

I'm not sure how to get people to show up and interested. We have 3 facebook groups for the two local regions. The main official page has over 800 followers and we post all of the events and info there. We still have the same 30-40 people coming out to events and rarely anyone new showing up. 

MrChaos
MrChaos SuperDork
2/11/20 7:44 a.m.

In reply to Dave M :

1. I know a number of people trailer to the etr events but that is because of street legality issues(no title, not street legal, etc) but a lot of people drive their cars to the event. It is going to be tougher than autocross but that is also region dependent.

2. Region dependent. I'll let the DC guys chime in on that.

3. Local region rallycross group mostly uses their Facebook or their Instagram. But once the schedule is nailed down it goes up on motorsportsreg for signing up and registration.

4. As safe as autocross mostly, larger chance of a tire debeading. Per the scca course design rules it is supposed to be designed to be safe with very low rollover risk. I mean even in autocross cars get up on 2 tires occasionally.

5. National level cars will be evos or sti's for awd, crx's or other light cars for fwd, and miatas/e30s for rwd. But it matters less than autocross except for awd. In 17 mod rwd was won by a 71 super beetle for example. Last year 5th place in stock fwd was a 88 buick riata. In awd however it will be only evos or sti's or gc8 2.5rsti's 

Etr has a 4th gen camaro, 280z, aw11, p71, mk2 golf, new beetle, 3 Audi a4's, a w8 Passat, a s10 blazer, various Subaru, a tiberon, cobalt, etc

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
2/11/20 7:53 a.m.

I've been in and out and in and . . . etc of SCCA since the early 80s. When I talk about the racing I've done and say "SCCA" I generally get blank stares. Mention NASCAR or NHRA "Oh Yeah ! I've heard of those 2". Outside of SCCA, or racing related content, I never hear of SCCA.  SCCA needs to market it's EXISTENCE first. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
2/11/20 8:07 a.m.
irish44j said:

Like you, we have the "official" DC rallycross FB page (for event announcements and official news) and an "unofficial" group for DC area rallycross and stage rally peopel, which is very active and really the go-to for the information in this area). 

Pet peeve of mine (the local region here is 1000x worse), but... how many events do you run a year?  None of them are planned now?  Did you only have one championship event last year?  Where does one find the results?

 

 

wae
wae UltraDork
2/11/20 8:15 a.m.

Is it a distance thing?  I haven't done anything autocross related in a long time, but I seem to recall that most of the AX sites were "in-town" whereas going to a rallycross involved a more serious distance commitment.

I also think there's a feeling that while you can take your nice car and autocross it without any worries, most people's daily drivers are "too nice" to subject to rallycross.  I wouldn't bring my Miata or the three-pedal minivan to a rallycross,  but I wouldn't hesitate to drag race or autocross either one.  Despite all the talking about how courses aren't supposed to be punishing to cars, our events get enough torn off bumpers and fender liners that people are going to think twice about doing that to their "nice" car. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
2/11/20 8:16 a.m.

To expand on the above, one of the biggest deterrents for me is that I feel like I am information starved when I am reading about almost any region.

It should be super clear to someone who has never seen your rallyx page before:

  • when the next event is
  • how to sign up
  • what they need to bring
  • what will be expected of them at the event
  • how much seat time they will get
  • how to class their car
  • where/when results will be posted
  • how updates will be communicated
  • etc. etc.

 

SCCA has material that covers some of this, link to it.  Maybe they need to create some material to cover some of the other stuff?  Obviously some is region specific.

79rex
79rex Reader
2/11/20 9:05 a.m.

My local region, milwaukee, started rallycross about 2 years ago.  They seem to be doing a good job with it.  The event last weekend, which was my first, had a little over 30 drivers.  Their biggest turnout yet.  

dps214
dps214 Reader
2/11/20 9:13 a.m.
irish44j said:

 It's almost all national. Stories about rallycross generally reference nationals. Stories about setup generally reference car(s) or driver(s) that were at nationals. But let's face it, only a small percentage of rallycrosser go to (or really care about) nationals. Like politics, almost all racing is local. Hyping nationals in Iowa does virtually nothing for local turnout or interest. Most locals just want to have a good time, not follow Brianne's or Warren's or Evan's personal racing careers ;)  So a few things SCCA itself could do on that end:

I absolutely get what you're saying and I think more local attention would be great, but to be fair if I'm looking for setup advice I want it to come from someone with a known track record. And while I know there's plenty of rallycrossers out there that only aren't national champions because they haven't gone to nationals, national results are the easiest way to identify that someone's advice is actually worth taking. Also FWIW the last rallycross article in Sportscar from a month or two ago was just two local Detroit/Ohio guys talking about their setup experiences...they just happen to have three national championships between them as well :). Also my claim to SCCA fame now is that that's me driving in the headline photo with the article.

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
2/11/20 9:22 a.m.
Dave M said:

In reply to irish44j :

DC resident here. I've always loved rally, and yet, I've never done a rallycross event, mostly out of lack of basic education. Here's the basic, basic stuff that's kept me away:


-Cost. How much does it cost? All I know is that rally breaks stuff; so do I need to trailer my crap can to and from the event? Or can I realistically drive my rally car there and back.

-fun-vs-sitting around. Autocross is a lot of sitting around for not much driving time. Is rallycross better?

-Local SCCA website and event classification. When I started HPDE, the regional SCCA website was impossible to understand, as was the event classification - I literally was confused about when and where the HPDE events were. So I went with another group.

-Safety. Is it safe? Real stage rally is dangerous!

-Critical mass. This seems like a chicken and egg issue, but at least in the NASA events I've been going to, there's a clear ladder to racing in popular, affordable classes (944s, e30s, e36s) and popular, less affordable classes (Miata, e46s). It seems like rallycross might be less popular, with less of a clear ladder?

Thanks for starting the thread!

DC rallycross has a pretty strong facebook presence, if you're on there (I can post a link later) and a pretty decent "official" website page at wdcr-scca.com in the sub-menus. DC area is one of the most active rallycross areas in the country (Detroit, Ohio, and New England being the primary others in terms of attendance, I think).

To answer some of your basic questions:

- Most events are about $70 to enter, I think. So a few bucks more than autocross but well worth it. We also do season subscriptionis (7-8 events) that reduce per-event cost.

- At least in this area, rallycross has a max of about 50-60 cars (DC autocross have 250-car events). We typically do 8-12 runs in a day (sometimes more) and course work (much like autocross). That said, we're out in beautiful scenery and watching rallycross cars doing crazy things is far more entertaining for course workers than autocross (in my opinion). I get super-bored at autocross events in general, but not at rallycross. YMMV, of course. 

- Almost all rallycross operates through two facebook pages (one official, the other more discussion-oriented). We only use two venues, and schedules are posted well in advance (the 2020 season schedule and locations are already posted).

- Yes, very safe. The courses are built to avoid dangerous situations. Of course, if you drive like an idiot, you can make it unsafe. But I would say it's more likely you get hurt driving down the street than doing rallycross, by a large margin. Stage rally is totally different. Yes, both on dirt/gravel, but that's about where the similarities end. Hence why stage cars have a ton of safety gear, cages, harnesses, etc. Rallycross you can do in a bone-stock (any car). 

- Classes are by drive type, not by car brand/model. Basically, there are 9 standard classes: front, rear, and all-wheel drive, and within each of those 3 sub-classes: Stock (stock), Prepared (mildly modded), and Modified (heavily modded). Classing is simple, and in some cases "lower" class drivers are faster than "upper" class drivers. You can run wherever you want, it all depends on what car you have and what you have done to it. Nothing to do with a "ladder" or experience. Some of the best drivers run in stock class, some in prepared, some in Mod. All are welcome, and experience doesn't matter. Nobody will look down on you for being a newbie, or having a slow car, or driving conservatively. 

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
2/11/20 9:28 a.m.
rothwem said:

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I've never done rallycross, although it does look like fun.  But would adding more people really make it more fun?  Doesn't less people=more runs? It seems like if it were to get really popular, you'd end up with factory backed guys out there in 100k cars going 100 mph around some farmer's field dirt track.  The fun of rallycross seems to be the grassroots nature of it, with junk cars going sideways around a race course.  

Edit: dang, it won't let me embed a youtube video.  Imagine Ian Malcom from Jurassic Park saying, "your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should"

it's all relative. In a place like DC where we hit our cap anyhow, we don't really *need* more people per se, and yes - moer people can lead to less runs.  It's really for many other rallycross venues that sometimes struggle to get enough entries to actually pay for the venue being used (be it a field, fairground, or whatever - we have to pay for using it!). In most places you need something like 25-30 entries to break even on costs, so clubs that can't meet that usually fail due to losing money. The marketing is more to help the (many) smaller regions get enough people to stay viable, than to specifically build up the already-powerhouse regions like DC, New England, Detroit, etc). 

FYI, plenty of the best rally drivers in the country already rallycross. Adam Kimmett runs our program. He was the overall winner at Southern Ohio Forest Rally last year. There are 5-6 more locally who stage rally and have been on podiums over the years. So maybe you won't see Pastrana out there, but you'll definitely see some seriously fast drivers in some very fast cars. 

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
2/11/20 9:34 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
irish44j said:

Like you, we have the "official" DC rallycross FB page (for event announcements and official news) and an "unofficial" group for DC area rallycross and stage rally peopel, which is very active and really the go-to for the information in this area). 

Pet peeve of mine (the local region here is 1000x worse), but... how many events do you run a year?  None of them are planned now?  Did you only have one championship event last year?  Where does one find the results?

 

 

We don't usually make individual event pages for events, since nobody really uses them (we tried a few years ago). . We had 7 rallycrosses last year. The 2020 schedule is posted (I thought on that page).  

That page is really just for announcements since only one admin has control over it.. The "Washington DC rallycross, rally, rallysprint" page is where most event planning, schedules, etc are posted primarily since it's an open-post page. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
2/11/20 9:41 a.m.

Don't forget there is also a main WDCR SCCA region page which has a calendar for "all events", but the Rallyx events do not appear on the calendar.  

Its needs to be crystal berkeleying clear where to look for this kind of info.  What you currently have is a mess to someone who is just checking to see what events are upcoming.

 

The types of people who are casually interested, even in spectating, aren't going to do a research project just to find out when the next event is.  Especially those who don't used facebook that much.

 

Its not unique to DC region sadly.

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