Megasquirt Article

While I applaud your concept of discussing EFI options there are some issues I have with the article. First off, you should have mentioned some of the other low cost choices. MS is without a doubt the most popular, but there are other systems out there that deserve mention. Second your cost table was pathetic. You didn't include the crank angle sensor, injectors, air filter, laptop to program,orwide band O2 system. That could easily double the price you show. About a year ago I finished an 034 1C system on my 80 quattro turbo project. My total on the project is a little over 2 grand. If you poll readers this is probably more like the typical cost. Yes it can be done for less but I pity the reader that thinks they can do the programmable EFI thing for less than a grand. All in all though good idea and thanks for having this forum so we can talk about it. BTW I found my car on the 200X classifieds board 5 years ago.

I haven't read the article yet. I'm usually a month behind. However, I've MS'ed 3 vehicles and spent well under a grand each. One motor had EFI on it, just needed a computer, wiring, etc. The other two were carbed at the start and I had to add all the EFI components. Depends on how good of a scrounger you are. Laptop shouldn't be included in the cost if you already have one, or you can buy a pentop for well under one bill on eBay, which is what I use to tune with. I use narrow band sensors in all of them. Crank angle sensors are also unnecessary. I use the existing distributor sensors for two, one of which uses coilpacks and waste spark, the the other uses a single coil and the distributor and the third uses the existing ignition off the coil negative as a sensor.

Yep, what the doc said. I've only squirted one vehicle so far, and didn't spend any where near a grand, and mine was a CIS changeover. Seriously, why would you include the laptop in the budget. I'd say the majority of people that are shopping for a stand alone EFI will already have one.

Or just include it as an "if you don't already have a laptop, you'll need to pick one up off CraigsList or eBay for $100 that can run Windows XP."

16vCorey wrote: I'd say the majority of people that are shopping for a stand alone EFI will already have one.

You might be surprised, based on conversations we have with potential customers. Right now, I'd recommend picking up a netbook for tuning.

A $35 garage sale laptop running Windows 98SE is plenty good for tuning. I run 98SE on the two pentops I use and Win2K on the laptop.

All I am saying is the budget in the article left out stuff that is necessary. I may be on the high side, but felt that new balanced injectors was a good idea. Same for the WB, I wanted AFRs below 12 under boost and over 15 at light load. No way a NB will cover that range.
My initial budget for this conversion was about 500 under what it ended up costing. Just trying to share my experience. Nothing worse than running out of money with a car you can't drive.

porschenut wrote: While I applaud your concept of discussing EFI options there are some issues I have with the article. First off, you should have mentioned some of the other low cost choices. MS is without a doubt the most popular, but there are other systems out there that deserve mention.

Probably could have but the article was entitled: "MegaSquirt Your Mind", not "Budget Stand-Alone DIY EFI Controller Comparison"

porschenut wrote: Second your cost table was pathetic. You didn't include the crank angle sensor, injectors, air filter, laptop to program,orwide band O2 system. That could easily double the price you show.

Crank angle trigger, you can use the stock ignition/timing system on 99% of builds and don't need to add this. This would simply be an end user upgrade, and that's not the point of the article. Why would you include injectors in the cost of the build? You can use the stock ones just fine, if you're adding FI/cranking up the boost, etc then yeah you'd need more fuel, but that doesn't correlate to the Stand Alone's cost. That's like saying you have to buy new tires when you go to bigger rims, well yeah. Air filter cost add on to a Stand Alone? I'll leave that one alone. A wideband is only necessary if you want more control or ability to know where you're at. If you have good maps or know how to tune with external equipment, you don't need a wideband, it all depends how you're setup.

porschenut wrote: About a year ago I finished an 034 1C system on my 80 quattro turbo project. My total on the project is a little over 2 grand. If you poll readers this is probably more like the typical cost. Yes it can be done for less but I pity the reader that thinks they can do the programmable EFI thing for less than a grand. All in all though good idea and thanks for having this forum so we can talk about it. BTW I found my car on the 200X classifieds board 5 years ago.

Well add our MS build to the poll in the under $1000 category including 'upgrades', we bought all our stuff from DIYAutoTune, talk to Matt (madscientist on this board) we spent $190 on an unassembled MS-I V3 so we could upgrade later + $65 3bar MAP sensor and another $40 on the stimulator. We had it hooked up and running our stock setup reusing the old wiring harness for this cost, that's $300 and we used the stock TFI setup. If you want to include 'upgrades' in your list then we spent after the fact:

$180 on a PLX wideband O2, $160 on brand new 75#/hr low impedence injectors, $20 for a GM CLT and I believe we reused our IAT or some such, I'll even include our 255lph fuel pump to fuel our bigger injectors at $100 new.

That gave us a full stand-alone setup capable of fueling our 2.3T to as much boost as our Holset turbo could feed it. In fact the limiting factor is now the 3bar MAP and or the Holset turbo, and the total cost was right around $800. We used a POS used laptop that we got for free because our buddy didn't have any use for it.

Just thought I'd share our experience w/MS...

Could someone post some links to these Megasquirt alternatives? I hadn't heard that there are other cheap DIY systems out there...

I've heard pretty good things about SDS(http://www.sdsefi.com/), but that was years ago. I think their system costs about $1k, or a little less.

14point7.com has some cheap and effect wideband controllers

Thought I would share

Taiden wrote: 14point7.com has some cheap and effect wideband controllers Thought I would share

not only are they cheap they stand behind there products 130%! I have 3 of them and no problems to date!

I megasquirted my e30 a little over 3 years ago for around $400. I bought used parts as much as possible.

I will have to come in on the well under a grand side. DIY MS 2 V3 kit was less than 250. Using coil negative for a tach input. Using a Ford TBI set up off a T-bird, it came with injectors for free. Fuel pump was a hundred. Built the relay board out of my junk box. Wiring harness home built one strand at a time. Narrow band O2 sensor was free at LKQ. Even if I include the netbook I just bought (250) and add another 100 for misc stuff (wire, connectors ect) I'm still well under a grand. With a "money will solve anything" mentality you could probably spend 5K on a MS. With a "cheap bastard mentality" and a shop full of junk, you could probably do it for 200. It all depends on how you approach the project.

I will grant you this, it isn't installed yet. It's on my desk waiting on me to get tired of screwing with a Niki 4 barrel carb, which is working like a charm at the moment.

Excellent attempt at trolling.

Toyman01 wrote: I will have to come in on the well under a grand side. DIY MS 2 V3 kit was less than 250. Using coil negative for a tach input. Using a Ford TBI set up off a T-bird, it came with injectors for free. Fuel pump was a hundred. Built the relay board out of my junk box. Wiring harness home built one strand at a time. Narrow band O2 sensor was free at LKQ. Even if I include the netbook I just bought (250) and add another 100 for misc stuff (wire, connectors ect) I'm still well under a grand. With a "money will solve anything" mentality you could probably spend 5K on a MS. With a "cheap bastard mentality" and a shop full of junk, you could probably do it for 200. It all depends on how you approach the project. I will grant you this, it isn't installed yet. It's on my desk waiting on me to get tired of screwing with a Niki 4 barrel carb, which is working like a charm at the moment.

LOL!!!! My first MS sat on the shelf for a year. Be fore I gave up on turbo charging a carb,,,,,, the carb did not like going over 5psi and my target was 10.

OK I was wrong. It can be done for well under a grand. But there are still so many hidden costs mentioned in the article not shown on the cost. Another one I didn't mention was dyno time. Yes you can tune the car without it, but to really get the system running at 100% you are kidding yourself. I think the article said something about a couple of hours, how much would that cost us?
One more comment to the low buck crowd. If you want to use old, non balanced injectors its your money and your engine.

porschenut wrote: If you want to use old, non balanced injectors its your money and your engine.

Like I said, I bougt 4xBRAND NEW, flow matched, ACDelco Low Impedence 75#/hr injectors off a fella who delt in injectors on TurboFord, $160 for that kind of fuel capacity for a 4 banger is cheap, you can still find deals like this if you look...

Good, but I needed 5 Seriously though Raze you did the right thing. My initial point still stands, why didn't they include the new injectors in the price estimate? If you add that and the dyno time the total blows over a grand. No one on this forum apparently has had it happen but I have seen many people start the EFI conversion and end up going way over budget.

Sorry you bought 034efi, I'd be salty too.

Haven't had time to read the new issue.. but I put MS on my personal/race car for about $500...

MS1 V3 kit: 193 Innovate LC1: 199 Parts to mod for my setup: $~50 tops (I have this stuff sitting around and didn't track it) Wire for adapter harness = spare wire I had around from another harness: $free Connector for adapter harness from blown ecu I had: $free Injectors: $free, on the car already Crank sensor/wheel: $free, on the car already Coilpack: $free, on the car already Coolant/air temp sensors: $free, on the car already Tuning laptop: $free, wife's old laptop from college (runs win 95) Serial cable: $1?, I had connectors and some shielded wire and made one

If you already have a electronically fuel injected car, it can be very inexpensive. It can also be the same if there's a similar version of your motor with EFI.

I spent $150 at the dyno but I tuned my car AND did a comparison to stock management with a chip at the same time which was over half of it. I only gained 2whp doing the dyno tune, which is about normal for a well setup street and track tune. I think I spent $35 on that T&T as long as you don't count the pressure plate I broke.

I'm not sure how that wouldn't be under $500 unless you count my labor and expertise but that wouldn't be fair either. Heck I'm selling my current setup right now for $800 including a brand new LC1 wideband kit.

I do quite a few MS installs on various cars and about average for all the hardware, setup, installation, tuning, etc, is about $1500 plus dyno time. I don't include dyno time because it varies greatly with how the car is going to be used. Drag cars don't usually bother with it, road race guys are super anal about it, and street guys just want their 3 pull number. Depends on what the customer wants.

There are a few more sub 1k options, but not many. eMS Pro, the MSPnP's for the Mazdas, and VEMS(maybe) are the only ones that spring to mind.

Well Paul, I guess I should have just given the car to you and written a check. And yes 034 is more than megasquirt. At the time I thought it was worth it. In retrospect, I should have left the car with CIS.

The injector cleaning on the two junkyard injectors would have been $48. The 680cc injectors that were already in the motor were already cleaned and balanced while the motor was out for a rebuild. We did get an extra set cleaned just to be safe since the whole project was happening a couple hundred miles from home.

Another cost was the intake manifold. I had a whole intake assembly with four injectors shipped to me for $75 (I believe) but that was years ago when I was planning the megasquirt setup. I had plugged the upper injector bungs since the stock system did not use them. I think there may have been some injector hosing replaced and clamps that we may have failed to mention.

You could add maybe $150-$200 to get the car up and running. You can offset those costs by building the MS-II assembly yourself, not using the relay board & cable, getting junkyard injector plugs and sensors, not using weather pack connectors. That right there will save you roughly $400.

After starting it up and tuning around the Road Atlanta infield we only saw an increase of over ten horsepower. We picked up the rest of the horsepower and a lot of load testing and drivability with the dyno tuning. Sure we didn't need to dyno tune it right then but it wouldn't have been much of a story without numbers and factual data. Not to mention tuning a car on the streets is sort of illegal and risky.

We weren't going for a Challenge budget. Hell the motor cost more than a challenge budget just in parts! You are right Porschenut the cost can really get up there if you are starting from scratch and want to new components from the get go. We are just trying to give a realistic cost to our readers using new and used components to get the car up and running.

The budget sheet was to give a general idea of the costs involved—some cars will need injectors, some will need sensors—but given some shopping around, you can get this done for under a grand. I don't recall ever writing that we were trying to do it for a price point—just that we wanted to do it on a budget. The price list that we had included assembled components, we could have saved $175 by doing the soldering ourselves.

porschenut wrote: One more comment to the low buck crowd. If you want to use old, non balanced injectors its your money and your engine.

Considering the massive volume of cars on the street without ballanced injectors, it's a luxury, not a requirement. Doing this for a living really opens your eyes up to what is REALLY required to make a lot of power, safely. Ballanced injectors are in that last 0.5% power improvement, which, IMHO, isn't worth it, since the dyno time it would take to get the 0.5% is pretty darned expensive (let alone the parts that would be required on the car to actually take advantage of it- header material, valves, and knowledge of the critical head temps).

Cleaning them is good, but, again, that's easy to do yourself.

The CORE benefit to ballancing, at least I hope it's true, is an injector calibration that makes some sense. If not, I would not pay for it.

p-nut- you seem to be rather jaded about the article, and somewhat defensive in your replies to this thread. Just because your experience shows that it takes a lot of money to do this does not make it true for everyone. Even your example of dyno time is not really needed- a good "dyno" program and some runs at the local test and tune day at the 1/4 track will work just fine, and is a WHOLE lot cheaper. The problem with that method is that you MUST know what you are doing, where most dyno shops have an "expert" who can help.

Being that the article was a "here's what MS is", I think it was quite good. And IF I ever get back into aftermarket EFI, I would have a tough time not choosing it as a system, based on cost, performance, and what I see is the style of how the software runs.

Anyway, I though it was a good, GMR style article. Eric

Sorry for the apparent defensive tone. My experience with this conversion was not real positive. Maybe I just got over my head on it. If you read my initial post, I said the article was a good idea. The suggestion to mention or include other systems was just that, a suggestion. I still maintain the table of costs is way off. Mentioning thinigs and then not including them in a summary of costs in my opinion is wrong. Again maybe it has to do with my experience. I ended up spending more on the EFI than the car. Either I was a fool to do the project or got a deal on the car. Regardless I am glad GRM is there to read and the forum is available to share opinions.