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redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
11/15/16 5:22 a.m.

I'm sure this has been asked before and if I wanted to dive deep into the rabbit hole of the MS forums I could probably find the answer...but that hole is far too deep for me.

The question is simple--can I use one of the Megasquirt systems to solely control spark/ignition advance and retard? My car uses a Denso electronic distributor with mechanical advance and a MSD6A box. I run twin 40 IDF carbs--I'd later like to switch to ITB EFI but the Webers are great right now.

What are my options? Keep the MSD 6A and dizzy and use the MS to intercept the signal and base ignition timing off of rpm through the MSD box? Can I eliminate the dizzy and box all together and run coil on plug? Wouldn't that require some sort of pick up wheel and sensor mounted on the crank pulley?

Thanks! JP

hhaase
hhaase Reader
11/15/16 5:40 a.m.

i believe so, but not 100% sure.

Either way, your right, it also needs a good signal to the ecu. Can potentially use the distributor too if you lock the advance. What engine?

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
11/15/16 6:24 a.m.

1300cc Toyota 4KC.

I'm just getting tired of the dizzy curve not being consistent. I just had it recurved to 30 degrees total. Not two weeks later it is shooting up over 40. I had to limit the mechanical advance with a limiter bushing...when's the last time you saw those?

I guess if I locked the dizzy and kept the MSD box, all I'd need would be the Megasquirt...? The signal could be generated from the dizzy rather than buying a 36-1 wheel, VRS sensor, EDIS module, and coil packs...

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
11/15/16 6:42 a.m.

Wast spark triggered off the crank is simple enough.

What motor?
Timing chain or belt?

Chains tend to be less accurate as they age where as belts will have some variants but for the most part remain constant.

You need to figuar out why the timing in your car is changing. If you use the dizzy to trigger the MS and the gain in timing occurs the ms will not solve that.

I set my 924s up with a edis based system using mjljr as the controller. I used a 72-1-1 trigger wheel on the cam and it workes great. I could easily swap in a ms in place of the mjljr. Or eliminate the edis all together and have the ms control everything. For me I liked the simolisity of the two wires from the edis and letting the edis control all the logic meaning I did not have to worry about dwell and possibly frying the coils. Edis also has multi spark built in under 2500 rpm for much better idle and off iddle throttle response as compared to the stock system in my car.

bentwrench
bentwrench Dork
11/15/16 7:02 a.m.

Id dump the wobbly old distributor, that is the source of your current grief.

Retaining it will retain the nasties it comes with.

A 36-1 wheel on the crank will easily surpass distributor accuracy and allow you to use wasted spark which will provide 40,000volts of very accurate distributorless spark. With a 3D spark table, rev limiter, launch control, and flat shifting.

With a crank trigger & cam trigger and some smart coils you can do COP.

Just say no to EDIS the MS2 will run things fine it has default dwell settings for standard coils.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 HalfDork
11/15/16 7:08 a.m.

That's what we did on a TR6 to get it running. We had an Electromotive HPV-1 before, so already had a trigger wheel mounted to the front of the crank. Running the ignition from the crank trigger, a 3-coil pack and a coil driver was fairly simple. This allowed us to make sure the Megasquirt sensor inputs and power were OK before switching from Webers to ITB fuel injection and break in the engine with a known tune. Depending on the engine/chassis, it might not be difficult to add a crank trigger to the pulley. If you want fully sequential injection, you'll need some sort of cam sensor as well.

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
11/15/16 7:41 a.m.

Engine has a timing chain buried under a timing cover that requires removing the oil pan. The timing is changing because the limiter bushing wasn't doing its job--it wasn't limiting anything.

I need the dizzy to drive the oil pump--but I can simply gut it.

36-1 trigger wheels are easy enough to find and mount. So, give me the run down on what I'd need:

36-1 wheel VRS Pickup Ford EDIS 4 module Ford EDIS 4 Coil Packs Megasquirt

Any recommendations on which Megasquirt and do I keep the MSD box or ditch it? It sounds like the EDIS 4 module takes the MSD box's place?

bentwrench
bentwrench Dork
11/15/16 7:58 a.m.

If you build a MS2 v3.0 you don't need the MSD or EDIS module. The EDIS 4 pak coil works great on a 4 cylinder.

I recommend using Extra code and thus reading only the Extra manual as things are done differently. Extra manuals.

The manual is huge and somewhat daunting, best to print out the pages that apply to your hardware. Then read the setup manual until you are ready to dive in.

First thing is to get your trigger wheel and sensor mounted, read the manual as there is some help on where to place the missing tooth.

Then sort out a good vacuum source for the MS. If your intake does not have a balance tube you may need to do a little fab work. With individual runners tapping 4 small hoses to a larger log to feed to the MS should work well. The small hoses and area of the log should equalize and smooth out the vacuum signal.

Is that the old Hemi motor?

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
11/15/16 8:06 a.m.

My Corolla's 4AGE is running wasted spark CoP ignition with a 36-1 crank trigger wheel on a MS3X. MS2X, MS3X or MS3 Pro can drive CoPs. The MS3X is also running fuel and everything else, but I see no reason why you can't just leave those out.

bentwrench
bentwrench Dork
11/15/16 8:13 a.m.

With a daughter board an MS2 will do COP and sequential injection on a 4 cylinder for much less $.

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
11/15/16 9:41 a.m.
Then sort out a good vacuum source for the MS. If your intake does not have a balance tube you may need to do a little fab work. With individual runners tapping 4 small hoses to a larger log to feed to the MS should work well. The small hoses and area of the log should equalize and smooth out the vacuum signal

I shouldn't need vacuum for just ignition controls, correct?

Is that the old Hemi motor?

Not these--the older 2TC and 3TC are hemi heads.

So far, my steps are:

-Buy 36-1 trigger wheel

-Buy VRS Sensor

-Figure out how to mount them -Get Ford EDIS 4 Coil Pack

-Read Extra manual

-Get MS2 v3.0

In the process I can lose the MSD box, MSD Coil, and dizzy--I could even sell them to recuperate some funds. I have a spare gutted dizzy that would work fine to drive the oil pump.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
11/15/16 11:26 a.m.
bentwrench wrote: With a daughter board an MS2 will do COP and sequential injection on a 4 cylinder for much less $.

I know, I have MS3X for the CANbus.

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
11/15/16 1:15 p.m.
bentwrench
bentwrench Dork
11/15/16 2:34 p.m.

Vacuum signal is for the ignition as well as fuel.

It provides the third demension of the spark table.

It would otherwise be flat and would not compensate for load.

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
11/15/16 4:46 p.m.

Ahhh...I knew I should have drilled and tapped all four runners on my IDF manifold. I only have one tapped for vacuum.

However, there are blocked off vacuum ports below the butterflies in each Weber barrel. Those should work, no? Or do they need to be above the butterflies?

bentwrench
bentwrench Dork
11/15/16 7:08 p.m.
redvalkyrie wrote: Ahhh...I knew I should have drilled and tapped all four runners on my IDF manifold. I only have one tapped for vacuum. However, there are blocked off vacuum ports below the butterflies in each Weber barrel. Those should work, no? Or do they need to be above the butterflies?

Manifold vacuum. Not ported vacuum.

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
11/17/16 1:57 p.m.

Okie dokie, this seems straight forward enough. Should be fun.

Anyone need a MSD 6A, MSD Coil, or a 4KC dizzy? You can run the 4KC dizzy on a carbureted 4AGE if you really want to keep it old school.

I also have a spare Weber 38/38 recently rebuilt and a 38/38 Redline jet pack.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
11/17/16 7:57 p.m.

One of the big reasons I went EDIS was the multi spark under 2500 rpm. The idle and off idle performance is noticeable. It is also stupid simple. Also at the time the MS ignition control of the waste spark coils was not nearly as developed as it is now with MS. Back then EDIS was the easy button. With the dwell presets they have now and all the other advancements it really comes down to what you ate comfortable with.

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
11/17/16 9:12 p.m.

Webers like multi spark idles in my experience. The MSD 6A produces a very smooth idle.

I'm comfortable with whatever is the best and will work with a 36-1 crank wheel and pickup. I don't have any way to effectively mount anything to the camshaft. If that's EDIS, I'll go EDIS. If it COP, I'll go COP.

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
12/16/16 6:10 p.m.

Okay, I'm ready to do this but I'm going to need some help figuring out what I need. So, here's what I "think" I need. I want to use direct coil control, eliminate the dizzy, add a trigger wheel and VR sensor. I'll gut the dizzy. Here's my list of what I think I need--please tell me if I'm missing something?

  1. MegaSquirt-II EMS System – SMD PCB3.57 Assembled ECU

(Do these come with the wiring harness?)

2. IGN-4 Four-Tower Coil Pack

(This coil does not have an igniter. Can the MS fire the coil or do I need an igniter? If so, recommendations? Can I use my MSD 6AL?)

3. Bosch BIP373 Coil Driver Mod Kit

4. 6 3/4″ 36-1 Trigger Wheel – No Slots

5. Hall Effect Crankshaft Position Sensor

(4 and 5 should take care of the ignition timing, correct?)

I understand I'll need manifold vacuum which I can get from the ports on each barrel of the IDFs. All I'm trying to do at this point is control timing (FI, ITBs, and a supercharger will come later). Is there anything else I'll need?

I appreciate the help guys.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
12/16/16 7:56 p.m.

You want to run no dizzy? With that coil pack and running waste spark, you are going to need two coil drivers. The MS comes with one. You can add a second coil driver to it, I think (haven't done that myself.) The MSD units are fantastic, and you could control one with the MS, BUT you would need 2 MSD6's, or one of the dual fire MSD6 units (forget the exact part number.) Those could be controlled by the MS without coil drivers, but probably with an extra 2n2222a or so.

You could run two 1997 Toyota Camry coil packs and drive them from the MS in waste spark. That's what I did on the 20v 'rolla.

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
12/16/16 10:44 p.m.

I could run the dizzy and lock it out. I mean..it's going to be there for the oil pump anyway. The issue with the dizzy is that the advance weights just advance too much. I can remove them without issue.

If I did that I wouldn't need the 36-1 gear, the VR sensor, or the coil pack, correct? The engine doesn't see more than 7000rpm and when the dizzy is working it works great. I could just use the MS to run the MSD 6A?

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
12/17/16 6:24 a.m.

A MSD6a will trigger off of just about anything. Getting one to fire off a MS would be pretty easy. I think a 2n2222 off one of the panel LEDs would do it.

As for the dizzy, if it is a mechanical advance, yeah, you could lock it in any one position, whatever position is easiest, and use the dizzy pickups for timing. That is similar to what I do with the RN Truck. I just use the dizzy hall effect pickup for timing for the MS. It has a vacuum advance unit. I left the hose off the advance and called that "locked." You could also leave the advance mechanism alone, if it is purely mechanical, and tune out whatever advance it gives you in the tables, but I think it would be easier to lock it. And yes, then you wouldn't need the coil pack, extra coil driver, VR sensor or 36-l gear.

bentwrench
bentwrench Dork
12/17/16 10:18 a.m.

If you want to make a better mouse trap use the crank trigger. Much more accurate spark timing.

If you want it to just run, by all means use the distriwobbler. There is a reason you don't see them on any new cars....

I won't comment on the MSD.....

redvalkyrie
redvalkyrie Reader
12/17/16 2:36 p.m.

No, please--voice your opinion on MSD. If I didn't want your opinions I wouldn't be asking. And I'm a big boy--you won't hurt my feelings.

I will say that for me, the MSD 6A has been good. It was simple and eliminated a lot of whacky stuff you find on early 1980s Toyotas. However, what are your thoughts?

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