Has anybody here owned a six cylinder Mercedes 190E? I'm thinking about one as my next project car. Yes, I know about the 190E-2.3 16, but those are big bucks.
All of the E30 BMWs around here seem to be rusty or used up. The Mercedes seem to be better cared for and less prone to rusting. I know that I'd likely end up with an automatic, but I think the car might be fun with a 3.0 swap from a 300E.
Any thoughts?
Some good suspension options exist, but you'll most likely have to get them shipped from Europe.
The 2.6 in this and the 3.0 in the W124 are in the same family, and aside from the ECU it's a completely bolt-in swap.
They look great in dark colours with subtle, period-correct mods.
Bolt pattern is 5x112 with factory wheel specs being 6Jx15" +49 offset with a 66.6mm hub bore, so many other MB wheels fit.
5 speed cars are hard to find, but a few do exist.
sit in one before you buy. My sister had one, it had the hardest seats known to man. Wooden school desk seats were nicer on your bum than the seats in her's. My uncle also had one, bought it and drove it to Florida, hated the seats so much, he sold it at a loss down there and flew back
Get the manual. The m103/m104 engines are oddly similar to Toyota jz series. And responds to turbos just as well.
mad_machine wrote: sit in one before you buy. My sister had one, it had the hardest seats known to man. Wooden school desk seats were nicer on your bum than the seats in her's. My uncle also had one, bought it and drove it to Florida, hated the seats so much, he sold it at a loss down there and flew back
I've heard of a "fly and buy" before, but never a "drive, hate it so much you sell, and fly". That's pretty damning. I suppose you could always swap the seats.
I missed my chance to buy a mint 190-2.3 16 and wish I had done it. The chassis is solid, and I imagine these would be good with a 3.0l 6 cylinder.
I don't honestly know any real facts about them, but I do know that one has been coming out to a few rallycrosses each year for the past couple seasons, and I can't recall it ever actually finishing one. No idea if that is because of the car, the maintenance, the driver or what.....
I've always thought the 190 w201 looked nice, but I've never heard it compared to an e30 in terms of driving experience. But maybe nobody cross-shops them, who knows :)
Prove me wrong and find me a new car to get rallycross newbies into. Because 190s are cheap and easy to find on CL around here! 
In reply to irish44j:
They're pretty slow with the 2.3 and the auto, noticeably softer than an E30, and the steering is more boosted and isn't as quick. That being said, they do use a pretty sophisticated 5 link rear end, so they are completely and utterly predictable near the limit, and the somewhat softer suspension is very nice on washboard roads.
I drove one of the Cosworth cars once and noted that the seats in it were pretty hard as well, but I was able to adjust the seat position so they were still pretty comfortable.
I almost got run over by one walking thru a Home Depot Parking lot. Guy driving it must have been high. I wasn't the only thing he almost swerved into. Car was cool as hell. Flat black, lowered, flared fenders, and obviously had some form of Chevy V8 in it. I would describe it as murdered out. Been thinking about picking one up ever since.
I've owned 3 of the 2.3-16 version. Probably my favorite all-around car.
The six-cylinder autos are great for regular street driving. In stock form, they don't feel particularly sporty. But a lot of that is due to the fact that there are a million rubber bushings in the supension and by now they're all rotten. Replace all the rubber and the car comes to life. With a functional LSD, it's pretty easy to slide around.
Other than that, the wheel wells are small and the arches are squared off, so there isn't much room to fit modern tires. You can fit 225/50-15 or 225/45-16 with the right wheel offset, but that's about as big as you can go.
As for suspension, H&R springs with Bilstein dampers is great for street use. Or, you can get coilovers from Ground Control. The steering wheel is big enough for an America's Cup yacht, but Momo and Nardi offer adapters.
Compared to an E30, the chassis is significantly and noticably more rigid. It's less snappy at the limit; easier to control when oversteering; and more stable in high-speed corners. Believe it or not, the two platforms weight about the same. Aerodynamics are hugely better: wind noise is comparable to modern cars.
Where the E30 really excels is steering feel. I think the shifter and seats are better on an E30 as well. And, of course, aftermarket support is in a different league for the E30.
I know a guy who stuffed some AMG engine and a manual into one, can't remember the specifics (I can get them if somebody wants) and I never got to ride in it in that configuration but it was supposedly scary fast, IIRC he scrapped it after that as it turned out he got a well hidden clip job car and the power made that apparent, then went and replaced it with a euro spec Cosworth. If you get one that isn't made of two half cars it's supposed to be a really overbuilt chassis, one of the last (along with the W124 and W126) of the old school mechanical engineer's dream cars that Mercedes really built to last.
I had one for a while. A set of good tires and new shocks were enough to make it a fun street car. I moved it down the road due to a growing family and a back seat that is useless for anything. Car seats were a big problem. If the driver is taller than 5'10" the person behind them better not have legs.
Fun car in stock form if you bring the suspension up to spec. Great road feel that inspires confidence.
BrokenYugo: you're thinking about the W202 C36 AMG. The engine is a slightly larger version of the twin-cam M104 from the 300CE coupe and 300SL roadster. I believe compression is higher and the cams are more aggressive, but don't quote me on that. When swapping into a W201, people use the dogleg Getrag from the 16V.
Think of the the BMW big sixes: the DOHC M88/S38 from the M1, E28 M5, and E24 M6 is essentially a development of (and shares the same block with) the old SOHC M30 from the ordinary cars. The 3.2 L DOHC M104 shares a block with the 2.6L SOHC M103 in a regular 190E. In theory, it should bolt right up.
It gets a little tricker in the Benz world because in 1993 they switched from Bosch CIS/KJet electromechanical fuel injection to conventional EFI. The M104 twin-cams came out not to long before that transition. If you're planing to swap into a W201 chassis, I imagine things would be much easier if you started with a pre-1993 donor vehicle.
Pic of my car back around 2001
In reply to LanEvo: Could have been, I think it was something else though, might have been a V8, I recall it being mentioned that it was one of the first W201s with that swap. He has that C36 AMG motor swapped into a W210 wagon though, homemade E36 AMG.
EDIT: It was the C36 AMG engine, the special part was his had a 6 speed stick in it, rather than the dogleg box.
All Merc seats built before the turn of the century or so, remind me of a square of plywood mounted to one big coil spring, like the kiddy horses on the park.
Bump. These things seem ridiculously underpriced for what they are. A lot of nice condition ones floating around too, oddly enough.
I had been looking at SC300/SC400 for a comfortable commuter car but seeing one of these in great shape on the local CL has me thinking otherwise. 
I actually had one purchased new back in the day. I always liked the squared off shape of them and the E30s of that era. I guess I would best describe it as competent..........which is not a bad thing. Just a solid well built vehicle, not particularly fun but went about it's business just fine. No high points but no low either. I think you would cure most of the problems with your motor swap. I always liked them and still do.
Six months later, the seats still suck.
I have an '85 2.3 5-spd with 215k on it. I love it. A year or two before I bought this one, I thought I might like one, so when a nearby used car lot listed a ~'91 190E 2.6 for sale, I went up and drove it. Ugh. It could not get out of its own way. I suspect it was the auto tranny, but damn it was slow. Maybe that particular auto was in terrible shape, I don't know. It didn't shift rough, it just felt like it had about 5 hp total.
Having a manual makes mine feel like a totally different car. Not fast by any stretch, but I can at least keep it up where it's not totally bogged down. I've had it for about 18 mos now and have been gradually working through the maintenance list - all new shocks, all new steering components aft of the steering box, new tires, coolant hoses, motor mounts, fluids, other stuff I'm sure I've forgotten. Nothing has really been too pricey, and it's been easy to work on. It feels way more solid now, but as LanEvo mentions new bushings all around will improve things even more. The new shocks helped a ton. Slightly stiffer springs will help a bunch too I think. Slightly shorter springs would be good too, since I think they really look loads better if they sit a hair lower - not slammed, just an inch or so drop.
The only problem I really have with it is starting it. If it ran recently enough that the engine still has a little heat in it, it fires right up. If not, starting is a delicate dance with the gas pedal to coax it up to 1500+ rpm and then keeping it there while it gets a little heat in it. After 2 min of that (tops), it's good to go and purrs like a kitten. The dance steps change depending on if its 90F out or 20F out, so it certainly keeps you on your toes. I am gradually acquiring parts to MS it, since the old KE-Jetronic system is a bit dated and, frankly, I want to give standalone mgmt a whirl. Maybe I'll turbo it eventually.
On the seats, I seem to have the opposite problem - mine is way too soft, though it does feel like just one big spring.
irish44j said:I don't honestly know any real facts about them, but I do know that one has been coming out to a few rallycrosses each year for the past couple seasons, and I can't recall it ever actually finishing one. No idea if that is because of the car, the maintenance, the driver or what.....
I'm not the guy that keeps coming out, but I brought my 190 to the October DC rallyx. I heard this comment before I went, and as he went over my car, the guy doing tech said "we've never had a Mercedes finish a rallyx day. Good luck!" That was my first ever rallyx, and although I wasn't fast by any stretch (def due to the driver), I am apparently the only person to pilot a MB in a DC rallyx without it breaking. I'd put this down to all the preventative maintenance I did before bringing it out. Any 30-yr old car w/ beat shocks, wobbly ball joints, and a totally shot steering linkage is probably not going to fare well.
Next season if I get the stereo sorted (ie, working in more than 1 speaker) I was thinking I'd blast some classical music during my rallyx runs to maintain that high-falutin MB image. Not as effective if I have to keep the windows up though 
There's a clean looking one for sale very cheap locally to me on CL but needs a trans apparently. How suspect are the transmissions in them? I imagine it's shared among other MB platforms
In reply to Stanger2000 :
The transmission should be the same across the board for any Benz running the M103/M104 engine. The SOHC (M103) was available in 2.6L form in the W201 2.6 and the W124 260E. The 3.0L version was available in the 300E variants, including 300CE (coupe) and 300TE (wagon). The DOHC (M104) was available from 1990 in the 300CE coupe, and after 1993 across the W124 range (facelift cars). They made a billion of them, so it should be easy to find one for a good price.
Those 300CE have beautiful lines. I would love a brown one with tan interior and lowered on bronze 3 piece Brabus Monoblock III wheels.
In the November 2017 issue, Road & Track published one of their one page road test reviews for every Mercedes they have ever tested. I was surprised to see that the 190E 2.6 compared pretty well to both the 190E-2.3-16 and the 300E. It made me think that the swap to the 3.0 wouldn't be worth the trouble unless your 2.6 already needed replacement. But sure, I'd rather have a 2.3-16 any day.
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