Miata too slow? Car build choices..

accordionfolder said:

You seem to think that "advanced group drivers" are mostly finished in their process of skill acquisition and that is quite simply not true.  The bar for the advanced group is the ability to drive safely in an open passing environment, not the ability to turn a lap within half a second of the track record for the chassis. 

Advanced group drivers should have the ability to pass or be passed anywhere on track safely (within reason of course) and remain aware of how/why another car is where they are. Probably 50%+ of the drivers I encounter in advanced groups shouldn't be there. 

I would argue that lacking such awareness constitutes an inability to be passed safely in an open passing environment.  If you aren't aware of the other cars the you're liable to wander into their path.  Regardless, though, it's not relevant to my point about brainpower and the decreased learning opportunities available when you're spending all your time managing passing.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

You don't have to be the fastest guy on track, but aiming for a car that will turn a mid-pack lap time will give you better value for your track time.

Regardless, though, it's not relevant to my point about brainpower and the decreased learning opportunities available when you're spending all your time managing passing.

If this is how one is generating lap time and managing traffic you probably shouldn't be in HPDE4/TT/Advanced/whatever. Just go down to intermediate3 or whatever and figure the car out. 

I'm just saying the advice of: "Go buy something with hp because otherwise you'll be boned in a DE setting" is bad advice. Nobody in novice->intermediate1/2 is close to pushing their chassis limits and you'll be fine. If you're struggling in advanced low power or not - you shouldn't be there yet - total lap time is irrelevant.

accordionfolder said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

If this is how one is generating lap time and managing traffic you probably shouldn't be in HPDE4/TT/Advanced/whatever. Just go down to intermediate3 or whatever and figure the car out.  

Fundamentally, most track day groupings are not about speed, they are about safety.  Just as you don't get to go in the advanced group just because you have a fast car, you also don't get to go there just because you have have the talent to go into the corner at 10/10ths.  You get to go there because you have demonstrated the ability to drive a car in that environment safely, without creating risk to yourself or the others in the group.

Also, note that I am not advocating buying a GT3 so that you can drive it 15 seconds off the pace.  I'm saying that if you bring a car that's 10 seconds off the average lap time for the group then you're going to get passed a lot no matter how good a driver you are.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Just as you don't get to go in the advanced group just because you have a fast car, you also don't get to go there just because you have have the talent to go into the corner at 10/10ths.  You get to go there because you have demonstrated the ability to drive a car in that environment safely, without creating risk to yourself or the others in the group.

 If you're struggling in advanced low power or not - you shouldn't be there yet - total lap time is irrelevant.

And 

Fundamentally, most track day groupings are not about speed, they are about safety.

I'm saying that if you bring a car that's 10 seconds off the average lap time for the group then you're going to get passed a lot no matter how good a driver you are.

You're sending me mixed messages (don't worry about lap time, but get a car that makes good lap time easy), but if you're getting passed non-stop in intermediate2 go to intermediate1 -> still having a problem -> go to novice again and get a coach - it'd take something truly prolifically slow to have a problem in either novice or intermediate groups. When I'm coaching my 110whp miata is one of the fastest cars in intermediate2 and the fastest car by a wide margin in novice or intermediate1. You'll have no problem in either of those groups w/ a lower power car and you'll be learning a lot faster and more than most of the other folks with "too much car" - generally. 

The advice "get something for target lap time xxx while you're driving poorly" is a great echo chamber to learn bad habits and continue driving poorly. If you're achieving some nebulous average lap time while driving like a ham-fisted goober you're definitely not learning and you usually won't know you're not learning.

I'll stop derailing this thread!

My opinion: Get something you don't mind hurting, that has well known track setup and consumables, and fits your budget. Oddball chassis can make fun passion projects, but if you're just wanting to get more laptime and be faster - don't go chasing waterfalls. I wouldn't probably track a geo-metro, but anything in your list won't leave you wanting once you level up as a driver. 350z and any flavor of miata won't let you down - and have my vote.

accordionfolder said:

The advice "get something for target lap time xxx while you're driving poorly" is a great echo chamber to learn bad habits and continue driving poorly. If you're achieving some nebulous average lap time while driving like a ham-fisted goober you're definitely not learning and you usually won't know you're not learning.

If you think that's what I'm saying then you are not listening.  I'll try once more:

To start with, assume the same driver with a reasonable skill level in all comparison here -- no newbies, no unaware idiots, but not an SCCA national champ either.  Someone with experience, but who still has room to grow.  IME this is the average skill level for an advanced group driver.

At my local track (Laguna Seca), the types of cars you'll find in such a group vary widely in performance.  A stock Miata is probably doing 1:55 or so, whereas a GT2RS or McLaren 720S (neither of which is all that unusual) can do 1:35s.  This is with the same driver, remember.  Median pace is in the mid-to-high 40s, as represented by that same driver in something like an E36 M3.  That 20 second gap between fastest and slowest cars means the Miata will be lapped by the McLaren, probably twice.

You are assuming that I want a low-end driver to buy a GT3 so that he can drive mid 40s, which is not what I'm saying at all.  What I am saying is you will learn more driving an E36 M3 in that group than you will a stock Miata, because you will have more time to focus your brain on learning to drive.

As for the discourteous drivers in your video who ignore the faster Miata behind them in the corner only to stand on the throttle down the straights, kicking them down to intermediate will just screw that group even worse due to the more restrictive passing rules.  It is up to the organizers to identify those drivers, educate them, and if they refuse to change their ways then to ask them not to come back.  This is not a problem caused by skill level, this is a problem with lack of proper courtesy.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I'm reading what you're saying, but don't agree.

We'll have to agree to disagree - I've run Laguna, Buttonwillow, and Sonoma in a 1.6 miata and a d16 eg (not sure there's much slower than that!) as a novice - I had no problem, learned a bunch, and had a ton of fun. Nasa-Norcal is who put me through novice->TT, my instructor drove a d16 honda civic ef, ha! I'm not sure which was slower in a straight line.

I passed more than I was passed in the early groups for sure - obviously that didn't hold true in advanced/TT, but it doesn't really matter once you're in those groups to your point and mine.

To the OP, you can't hide how slow you are when you don't have any HP and - no, it doesn't get boring, especially in mixed traffic. You'll learn more, faster if you're not paying a pro coach because the cost of experimentation is a bit safer/obvious (you're doing 110 vs 140, there's more time to think about your braking zone and it's WAY more obvious if you're picking the throttle up late, etc, etc) and you'll probably get more track time if budget is a consideration since they cost nothing to run. If money is no object, go nuts - a pro coach and unlimited track time will make you fast in a hurry no matter what car you're in. 

accordionfolder said:

I've run Laguna, Buttonwillow, and Sonoma in a 1.6 miata and a d16 eg (not sure there's much slower than that!)

How long ago was that?  The performance level of the average track day car has gone up a lot since 1.6 Miatas and d16 Civics were common! :)

My track day comments are mostly based on experiences with HoD and NCRC.  NASA HPDE never made much sense to me (lots of traffic, lack of seat time), so I didn't start going to NASA events very often until I got my race license (racing ST4 now).

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

lol, I'm not that old - I just think cheap cars are better, especially when you're learning. Mostly Lotus/Ferrari w/ a mix of FR-S/BR-Z and bespoke race cars when I was running. I moved out of the bay circa 2017 - none of the lap times you mentioned were out of the realm of what was happening when I was running. 

I have continued running low power cars on this coast -on arguably harder to be fast at tracks (NCM in particular is brutal on low power cars). I learned more in a year running a 1.6 miata at NCM than anywhere else with pure seat time. 

I have an LS3 miata, and a bunch of other cars now - so I have a mixed perspective. 

C5 Z06's are weapons.  Several friends have them and they're crazy fast cars.  However their drive lines don't seem all that strong, as they've gone through several rear diffs, transaxle, etc.

I stick with my E36 M3 recommendation.  You can easily buy a well built one for your budget, they're quick enough to keep you entertained and out of traffic but are slow enough to learn driving in.  They're reliable, have a strong aftermarket and are still common enough to find parts in junkyards like fenders etc.

As pretty much everyone on the board here knows, I'm not a fan of Miata's.  Mostly because I don't fit in them but also because they're intergalatically under powered, which isn't helped by the altitude I live at.  I'd much rather have a hard top car for the track, with some torque.  I like driving and not constantly looking in my mirrors to point by everybody and their brother

In reply to docwyte :

Agreed, c5's can be made into an anvil, but they have astronomical limits (to a newer driver) even on the base models - and there are a lot of gotchas. Agreed on e36, but I would say any of the rwd/manual bmws I've met of that vintage make good track cars if you learn about them. I'm a big fan of 350/370 but there's a bit of a drift tax sometimes, but I've seen some stellar deals on them.

NCs are pretty dang quick out of the box and have well known setups. 

To directly answer the OPs question:
"People who went from a fast car to a miata, was it underwhelming?"

My buddy with tons of experience who went from a track weapon camaro into a spec miata - was completely blown away at how slow he was initially, the importance of staying flat/picking up the throttle early/etc was something he struggled with for a while - he was the one lead/following me in the video, he picked up the time slowly and didn't seem to have a bad time doing it, but of course ymmv. Maybe try to rent or ride along before you decide w/ some of these chassis?

accordionfolder said:

lol, I'm not that old

I am!  My first track day (in my brand-new NB Miata) was at Thunderhill in 1999. :)

Kind of suprised the E82 128i hasn't been suggested.  It's not as sharp edged as a Miata or Twin, but is certainly able to hold it's own.  M3 parts can be swapped onto them, so you can make it a bit more track focused.  

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

I am!  My first track day (in my brand-new NB Miata) was at Thunderhill in 1999. :)

Ha! 2004 is when I got my drivers license 

 

In reply to Puddy46 :

That's a neat option - I honestly haven't heard/seen a lot of them on track. They're, visually, one of my favorite bmw and they're pretty darn quick. 

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Sorry for my late reply to your host of comments. My reply will hopefully help the OP decide because there are some valid considerations I think we've both brought up.

So first; yes I do expect advanced group drivers to be able to manage traffic at speed. I'm keenly aware of the fact that many very competent advanced group drivers would be mid pack in a w2w environment.

This is where we are really going to differ: Managing traffic is something done off track. If you are in a slower car you have to spend some time thinking through this in the paddock.

Figure out what laps folks will be starting to lap you. Additionally you need to have a plan of where you are going to shuffle people past:

"on the brake zone for turn 5 I am going to lift 10 ft sooner and turn in 3 ft later"

"If they catch me on the entry to the esses I will maintain as much pace as possible and point them past on the exit"

"If someone catches me mid corner in the fast sweeping turn 8 I will leave room for them to scoot by just after the apex."

This is what one has to do when driving an under powered car. The drivers of faster cars know that they will encounter slower cars; that's part of the deal whether you are doing wheel to wheel or HPDE. My job  in the slower car is to have a plan to get them past me.

The OP is going to have to figure out if they want to deal with a car that requires a good bit of off track planning. Personally this is what I find engaging about the slower cars;  as an ADD poster kid I need to be kept busy all day.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

accordionfolder said:

lol, I'm not that old

I am!  My first track day (in my brand-new NB Miata) was at Thunderhill in 1999. :)

 

Pfft...........you're a whippersnapper. For the record 1987 Willow Springs on a motorcycle.

In reply to accordionfolder :

The 128i is one of those cars that has been forgotten about, but is starting to see a resurgence.  Last of the BMW NA inline 6s.

Puddy46 said:

Kind of suprised the E82 128i hasn't been suggested.  It's not as sharp edged as a Miata or Twin, but is certainly able to hold it's own.  M3 parts can be swapped onto them, so you can make it a bit more track focused.  

There is a neat series of articles on the Drive from a guy who bought a 128i and set it up for track work. Here is the first article in the series.

Tom1200 said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

accordionfolder said:

lol, I'm not that old

I am!  My first track day (in my brand-new NB Miata) was at Thunderhill in 1999. :)

 

Pfft...........you're a whippersnapper. For the record 1987 Willow Springs on a motorcycle.

Lol, y'all give me hope I can wheel for a long time, I was born in '88.

V6 camaro is the droid you're looking for. Earlier years, you could get a 1LE v6

In reply to accordionfolder :

There is a guy who vintage races with us, he's 85. He is our hero.

calteg said:

V6 camaro is the droid you're looking for. Earlier years, you could get a 1LE v6

That's the ticket, actually. Best choice and usually pretty cheap. I think there's a guy on this forum who tracks one?

Just looked it up:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/so-i-bought-a-v6-1le-and-i/158916/page1/

In reply to Tom1200 :

He's my hero too, now!

You punks crack me up. 1983 in a Datsun 1200 (hooray Tom1200!).

I occasionally do track days now in my Cayman S, and I have to agree with some of you that just because drivers are in advanced group doesn't mean that they know what they are doing. I no longer run in TNIA because it was too much of a clown show.

I think a Miata with a K-swap sounds like a great track car. All the goodness of a Miata, but more power and reliable. Cheap enough to walk away from if you wad it up. 

My Cayman is faster than average, and it makes it easier to have fun because I only rarely get passed down the straights, and it's fast enough to hang with even the really fast cars on the straights so you can really harass the jackasses that won't point you by. It's been my experience that when you are flashing your lights at Mr. Stubborn, you get more respect in a Porsche than in a Miata.

A Miata is not a Miata is not a Miata - the NA/NBs are old and slow.  I drive a well built '94R and it just doesn't excite me anymore, and managing faster traffic in the advanced groups just gets old.  A well prepped NC (bolt ons and a tune and a suspension) is a lot more fun.  In mine, I could give stock-ish C5s a hard time and the consumables are cheap.  The new SCCA class does look really promising.  While I haven't driven a ND on track, that looks even better. 

OP:  I just can't imaging that you wouldn't be bored coming from a high HP car into an old Miata.  Pack a lunch for the front straight...

My experience in swapping in a Honda K is that it costs a lot more than you'd figure and takes more time.  That was an Exocet, but would be the same for a NA/NB.  It is an inspired combination once you sort it out.  However, what I would do given the OPs goals, is to build a 2.5 and let Goodwin put it in the car.  A friend in the area has one and it's surprisingly quick on track yet still a decent street car.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/lets-25-swap-an-nc-miata-in-a-single-day/149432/page1/

In reply to jwagner (Forum Supporter) :

Funny, the car no one in GLTC seems to be able to keep together is an NC. I wouldn't lump all Na and NB in the same bucket either. 1.6 -> 1.8 -> VVT are all a bit different. A rotrex makes them fast with none of the turbo nonsense. A turbo makes them really fast if you can manage heat. K miata are a lot of doing, like you said - once sorted they're fast. I have an LS3 NA, a VVT NA, and a spec Miata. So I just did one of each ;) 

I think it's all a game of goals, budget, and what tracks you're running. Sonoma, Barber, and AMP make low power not a huge issue. NCM, Laguna, and RA type tracks can be a bit more boring without some go.