Miata too slow? Car build choices..

RacerBoy75 said:

You punks crack me up. 1983 in a Datsun 1200 (hooray Tom1200!)

Mmm it's a 1972 1200.......they made them from 71-73

My sports racer was turning 911 GT3RS lap times. 

I enjoy the Datsun becuase of the low cost and the low maintenance. 

I also have to admit that I have the most "fun" in the Datsun. The single seat cars I've owned were really cool to drive but again I have more fun in the Datsun.

I am sure I am not unique in that s respect. I know several PCA guys who went from 911s to Spec Miatas or Spec 944s.

Tom1200 said:

RacerBoy75 said:

You punks crack me up. 1983 in a Datsun 1200 (hooray Tom1200!)

Mmm it's a 1972 1200.......they made them from 71-73

I think he's saying he started tracking in '83 in a Datsun 1200.  

I am sure I am not unique in that s respect. I know several PCA guys who went from 911s to Spec Miatas or Spec 944s.

I think at some point most folks stop chasing some high strung build and/or dealing w/ expensive maintenance gets old  and you either go play with cheap cars with your friends or just occasionally pop into the track. 

jwagner (Forum Supporter) said:

A Miata is not a Miata is not a Miata - the NA/NBs are old and slow.  I drive a well built '94R and it just doesn't excite me anymore, and managing faster traffic in the advanced groups just gets old.  A well prepped NC (bolt ons and a tune and a suspension) is a lot more fun.  In mine, I could give stock-ish C5s a hard time and the consumables are cheap.  The new SCCA class does look really promising.  While I haven't driven a ND on track, that looks even better. 

OP:  I just can't imaging that you wouldn't be bored coming from a high HP car into an old Miata.  Pack a lunch for the front straight...

My experience in swapping in a Honda K is that it costs a lot more than you'd figure and takes more time.  That was an Exocet, but would be the same for a NA/NB.  It is an inspired combination once you sort it out.  However, what I would do given the OPs goals, is to build a 2.5 and let Goodwin put it in the car.  A friend in the area has one and it's surprisingly quick on track yet still a decent street car.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/lets-25-swap-an-nc-miata-in-a-single-day/149432/page1/

 

Just to ruminate on this a bit more. I've never gotten the excuse of "NA/NB" are slow. This car makes 188whp and has nothing special about it's weight or parts. You could do achieve the same power/weight with a stock motor/trans and a turbo making no boost or a rotrex turned all the way down. If GLTC cars have taught me anything, the problem isn't the car 95% of the time, it's the driver - a 2:13 is completely ballistic at NCM and even w/o the pro driver this car turned ~2:15 on street tires. So start w/ a stock miata and turn it up a little bit at a time as the driver catches up to the real limits. Real limits are easy to find because there's a track record for nearly every configuration of miata at every track. 

I agree completely that a "Miata" isn't always a "Miata".  Our VVT swapped, fully caged with aero NA is very different than a stockish NA/NB.  I also agree that a track prepped NC will give a lot of performance for $$$.  If I was starting over, I'd definitely be building an NC.  Our NA is getting a K swap, and I think when done it will really be in the sweet spot of speed/consumable cost/reliability.... hopefully I'll find out in a couple months.

The wrench that theruleslawyer has tossed in the works is that he needs to drive it to the track, which forces big compromises.  The biggest issues being safety equipment, and emissions legality.  Roll bars, race seats and harnesses aren't really appropriate for the street, and engine mods may be problematic in many states.  There are a lot of arguments to be had over speed potential/safety equipment, but Miatas are pretty much a no-go without at least a roll bar.  So a hard-top car probably makes more sense if it needs to be driven to the track.  E46, C5, Mustang, Camaro, etc....

In reply to Rodan :

I have a friend who specializes in prepping NC Miatas; as you know they can be made to go really well and still be very streetable.

That would be my pick for the OP.

https://monterey.craigslist.org/cto/d/monterey-1991-mazda-miata/7695117640.html

Drive it like you stole it and if you don't like sell off to someone else on here!

Rodan said:

The wrench that theruleslawyer has tossed in the works is that he needs to drive it to the track, which forces big compromises.  The biggest issues being safety equipment, and emissions legality.  Roll bars, race seats and harnesses aren't really appropriate for the street, and engine mods may be problematic in many states.  There are a lot of arguments to be had over speed potential/safety equipment, but Miatas are pretty much a no-go without at least a roll bar.  So a hard-top car probably makes more sense if it needs to be driven to the track.  E46, C5, Mustang, Camaro, etc....

 

I'm willing to live with the risks of at least a 4/6pt bar on the drive to the track. Maybe even a full cage if I found a fully prepped one. It won't be a 'street' vehicle. However it needs plates, cats, and enough muffler to not get immediately pulled over. A 4pt bar, full containment seat, and harnesses is part of the goal. I'm not in CA, but my state does emissions testing. That amounts to a OBD scan every few years. That's fairly flexible, but that means no bill of sale only cars, which has knocked out a lot of the prepped cars I've inquired about. Only other thing I have to worry about is just aero getting over minor curbs, speed bumps, etc.

In reply to theruleslawyer :

In your case I'd go with a NC Miata with 4 pt bar, race seat, the suspension & brakes done and some mild/moderate engine mods that keep it OBD emissions compliant.  180Hp in a 2400lb car is still decent. 

accordionfolder said:

I think at some point most folks stop chasing some high strung build and/or dealing w/ expensive maintenance gets old  and you either go play with cheap cars with your friends or just occasionally pop into the track. 

I had a friend "upgrade" to Formula Atlantic. He later characterized the experience as being similar to marrying an Italian supermodel with an intractable and expensive drug habit. That always stuck with me. 

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

I had a friend "upgrade" to Formula Atlantic. He later characterized the experience as being similar to marrying an Italian supermodel with an intractable and expensive drug habit. That always stuck with me. 

This was exactly my D-Sports Racer experience; granted I didn't make the money I do now.

Rodan said:

I agree completely that a "Miata" isn't always a "Miata".  Our VVT swapped, fully caged with aero NA is very different than a stockish NA/NB.  I also agree that a track prepped NC will give a lot of performance for $$$.  If I was starting over, I'd definitely be building an NC.  Our NA is getting a K swap, and I think when done it will really be in the sweet spot of speed/consumable cost/reliability.... hopefully I'll find out in a couple months.

The wrench that theruleslawyer has tossed in the works is that he needs to drive it to the track, which forces big compromises.  The biggest issues being safety equipment, and emissions legality.  Roll bars, race seats and harnesses aren't really appropriate for the street, and engine mods may be problematic in many states.  There are a lot of arguments to be had over speed potential/safety equipment, but Miatas are pretty much a no-go without at least a roll bar.  So a hard-top car probably makes more sense if it needs to be driven to the track.  E46, C5, Mustang, Camaro, etc....

 

I'm OK with a 4pt, fixed back seat, and harnesses on the street. Well I was with my NA, because I have short legs so for my head to have hit the roll bar meant something life ending already happened. 

Personally I'm not a fan of the soft-top-compatible roll bars available for either NCs or NDs.  IMHO they're too low and don't have enough rear bracing.  How tall are you?

I'm 6'0", and one thing I really liked about going from my Miata to my M3 is that there's so much more room inside for helmets and cage bars to not touch each other.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I will say the drop floor install was easy as far as race car parts go, took about one long night and now I have a ton of room for activities - I plan on doing it to my other Miata as well.

NC and ND rollbar options are pretty weird from an outsider. A well taken care of rotary rx8 or an rx8 with an LFX or an LS is too cool for school, but then we're getting in to the not so easy options.

Proportions are important to properly fit in a Miata.  I'm not quite 6' tall and I don't fit in an NA/NB worth a damn.  I literally look over the windshield header in them.  With NO padding on a stock seat, so basically sitting on the floor, my helmet still wasn't underneath the roll bar.  In other words, I still need over 2" of drop to fit properly, even when sitting on the floor.  No way I fit in an NA/NB for track work without a drop floor installed.

I've never sat in an NC/ND to check them out.  So my point is, if you're considering a Miata as a track car, you really need to go sit in one to see if you fit.  Don't just assume you will because you're 5'11" and your 5'11" friend fits in his just fine.

what about a b48 motivted f30-ish 320i?  Similar/same platform as the f82 M4.  Your existing wheels/tires will swap over, as well as the driver skill you've developed so far.  The motor's got a bit more compression ratio than the 330i, so you probably want to be careful tweaking up the wick too far, but 220hp is probably do-able, especially with a better intercooler.  then it's just a matter of focusing some attention on the brakes.

plus, thanks to the N20debacle (and general bmw depreciation) 2016-17 320i's are dropping below $10k now.  dunno how important having a manual is, but there's a few of them out there in the US.

otherwise, similar b48 f30-ish 330i's are around $15k now; with similar benefits to the 320i.

In reply to docwyte :

Agreed. Same car doc couldn't fit into, I fit fine and I'm 6'1". But I'm all legs and Doc is more torso. 

But I am much more comfy driving my Mirage at the track than a miata overall and that is my new track car. 

In reply to bmw88rider :

With NO padding on a stock seat, so basically sitting on the floor

Are you guys talking about a stock seat on sliders? Because you're still a ways away from the floor no matter how much foam you remove from a stock seat on sliders w/ the floor hump. A floor mounted racing seat w/o the hump substantially lower, and a drop floor you have to be a truly tall person to not fit with one. Wide is usually the caged miata problem, can't move the trans tunnel and the doors are in your business. 

I don't know about what all Doc tried but I had Ultrashield 17" on a floor mount and had plenty of room to spare. But I am really short torso for my height. I'm all arms and legs. I can almost fit under a rollbar with a stock seat. 

I now have my Mirage hatchback and that gives me tons of room while being lighter than an NA. It also has more HP and more brakes. I can't wait to get it on track with the new coilovers. 

In reply to bmw88rider :

Gotcha, just curious. Im a lotta torso and little legs so I don't fit great height wise in a stock na/NB with a helmet.

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

what about a b48 motivted f30-ish 320i?  Similar/same platform as the f82 M4.  Your existing wheels/tires will swap over, as well as the driver skill you've developed so far.  The motor's got a bit more compression ratio than the 330i, so you probably want to be careful tweaking up the wick too far, but 220hp is probably do-able, especially with a better intercooler.  then it's just a matter of focusing some attention on the brakes.

plus, thanks to the N20debacle (and general bmw depreciation) 2016-17 320i's are dropping below $10k now.  dunno how important having a manual is, but there's a few of them out there in the US.

otherwise, similar b48 f30-ish 330i's are around $15k now; with similar benefits to the 320i.

Not a bad idea. I thought all the lower F chassis were autos, so I didn't look much. A quick search suggests its a little like finding a needle in a haystack. The tires I doubt would fit other than bolt pattern. They barely fit in the wide body fenders with significant camber.

I looking into a 335 for a bit, but a lighter car was on the table too and I never found a manual that looked reasonable. I looked at older e36 and e46, but given I'm in a salt area, most of the cars are going to be in fairly bad condition. I could import one from the south, but that is significant effort/cost to get here and inspecting what might be a basket case would be hard. If there was a track build that looked clean I'd would consider getting it transported out of area. Being in an area that uses road salt really complicates finding a solid older car, especially one that would be typically driven in winter. Something like a miata or corvette is likely to be a summer only car up here at least.

For track days I recommend a car you like with consumables you can afford that provides what you enjoy about track days.  If you're into Fords, your budget can handle the tire and brake costs and you love the feel and sound of a V8 then something from the Mustang family would be a good choice and a Miata will be really disappointing.  If you're into turbocharged front wheel drive cars then the Mustang is going to feel like an overweight lumbering beast.  If you want track time to hone your skills at a relatively low cost then it's really hard to beat a Miata. If you enjoy hanging out in the paddock working on your car then something made by Fiat is a good choice (or, Renault if you're really committed to the paddock life). 

FWIW I ran across a pretty good deal on a c5 that came fairly well prepped. Seats, harness bar, extra wheels, bbk. So now to start refreshing the suspension prior to track season.

In reply to theruleslawyer :

That's a good pick. It won't be as easy on consumables but pretty sure you won't be bored with it.

In reply to theruleslawyer :

Good choice! Got any pictures of it? You're going to have a good time!