Miata vs. 3 Series

Ok, let's say you have less than 5K to spend and you are looking for a car to be your DD (possibly for a 1-hour commute) and occasional auto-Xer.
That 5K seems to buy a 94-98 miata or 3 series. I've owned a miata in the past and loved every minute of it. I averaged 30 mpg and it was stone reliable. I've never owned a 3 series, but it's always been on my "one day" list.
What are your experiences with these cars, especially the 3 series? I'd only consider a manual version of either example and I think I'd stay away from a 318. How are parts prices and availability? How reliable are they (remember, we're talking a 10+ year old car). Is there a reason to be looking at an E30 over the E36?

Just fishing for a near future car purchase....

Having played around with a '96 Miata for the last 7 years and having worked on 3 series briefly in college, I'd say they're both great cars for their intended purposes. The BMW (E30 or E36) is a great all-rounder that tackles the track as ably as it gets groceries (strut setup being somewhat limited in camber adjustments). The M20/M50 2.5 ltre is a torquey small 6 and scoots the bimmer around amply without drama (compared with the rev it till its screams 1.6/1.8 liter in the miata). The downside is parts are still expensive, but BMW 3'rs are fairly simple to work on by yourself (once you've diagnosed the issues) and things tend to come apart and go back together in a relatively sensible fashion. The miata is even easier and a bit cheaper, but the downside to simplicity is lack of space and gizmos.

If I were you with a 5K budget, I'd either find a nice '94-95 Miata (if you want to turbocharge or modify) or a super nice '89-'91 E30 325i or 325is. You sacrifice gas mileage and size with the E30, but they just look cooler and feel more tossable than the E36 to me. You might be able to get a nice '92-94 E36 for 5k, too, if you find yourself leaning that way. Whichever way you go, just get a nice example, because ratty bimmers are nightmares and nice ones well maintained ones are seemingly bulletproof. Have fun, I wish I had more garage space for a bimmer. :)

I wrote this a few weeks back in this thread...
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/e30-vs-miata/18558/page1/

I have owned a '90 Miata for 17 years and now a '87 325is for less than 17 days (still have the Miata.) If racing were dancing, the Miata fells like the love child of Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. Right out of the box, it can dance and wants to dance. The 325is "can" dance. A little training, a little tweeking and I suspect that it will perform well. The BMW does not screem to me to flog it in quite the way the Miata does. Some 17 years later and the Miata still begs for it. I find myself driving the BMW in a mostly civilized manner. This could be a result of the fact that you have to keep on the Miata to make power. I do find that idea of driving a slow car fast is more fun. The Miata's on street driving experience feels like an escape from reality and normality with the top down. The 325is an improvement to reality but still rooted in reality. Personally, I started autox'ing in a Miata where I bought the Miata first and then found (searched out) autox'ing as a way to further my love for the car. Starting autox'ing in a Miata is an interesting place to start. There is not a lot of "move-up" to other cars since most cars (at least reasonably priced cars) mostly pale in comparison. If track racing is your real goal, keep in mind the idea that you would not want to take anything out on the track that you can not afford to ball up and leave there. With that said, a replacement/rebuildable Miata will be much easier to find than a quality E30 which you may never replace. You really can not loose but I will summarize this way. Miata: pure sport and irrational fun. BMW: a great compramise (if you have to compramise.)

I wouldn't rule out the 318.

Reason to look at the E30 rather than the E36? Its a better car. E36 is newer, and arguably a nicer (more modern) interior, but its not a better car overall.

$5K will also get you a cherry 944...

P71 wrote: $5K will also get you a cherry 944...

Knock it off man! Another car on my "one day" list. I've thought a 944 as an option here. For some reason I pushed it out of my head though. Won't maintenance and repairs kill me? Can 5K buy be a cherry one? BTW, this would be a DD in snow country.

Where do you live? If I get a Porsche I might have to shack up with you for a while as the wife will think I'm nutz.

mtn wrote: I wouldn't rule out the 318. Reason to look at the E30 rather than the E36? Its a better car. E36 is newer, and arguably a nicer (more modern) interior, but its not a better car overall.

Can you (or anyone else) expound on these points (including the 318).

DrBoost wrote:

P71 wrote: $5K will also get you a cherry 944...

Knock it off man! Another car on my "one day" list. I've thought a 944 as an option here. For some reason I pushed it out of my head though. Won't maintenance and repairs kill me? Can 5K buy be a cherry one? BTW, this would be a DD in snow country. Where do you live? If I get a Porsche I might have to shack up with you for a while as the wife will think I'm nutz.

Atleast the sheetmetal on the 944's is galvanized steel. Better for resisting rusting. And it has the praciticality of a hatchback,

DrBoost wrote:

mtn wrote: I wouldn't rule out the 318. Reason to look at the E30 rather than the E36? Its a better car. E36 is newer, and arguably a nicer (more modern) interior, but its not a better car overall.

Can you (or anyone else) expound on these points (including the 318).

Better car is completely subjective. If you like miatas, you'll be more interested in the lighter, simpler E30 (think hardtop miata basically, especially the 318is). If you want a comfortable long distance cruiser that can be made a decent handler, you might want the E36. All cars can be shaped to your needs, but unless we know more about your specifications, we're just going to give you our preferences, :)

If I could only have that engine in my M3 in my Miata . . .

Or if my M3 wieghed less than 2300 pounds.

GregTivo wrote: All cars can be shaped to your needs, but unless we know more about your specifications, we're just going to give you our preferences, :)

I more or less summed it up in my OP, but here's a bit more info.
I owned a Miata (92 with limited slip) and LOVED it! What an awesome car. Great chassis, could have used a few more ponies or I should have laid off the Big Macs when I was younger. I've never owned any BMW but always wanted to. What ever I get next will be my DD with occasional auto-Xing. I'm sure I won't have tons of money to mod it so the miata would be better in that respect but I can deal with it.
I anticipate having a long commute (an hour each way) so comfort is pretty important. That being said, the miata was pretty comfy for long jaunts but not great. I would like to get decent mileage, the miata got 30-33 if I drove it like a minivan, 25-27 if I had fun. I'd like to get over 25 with a split of 60-65% highway driving. I'm good with a wrench and have a nicely equipped garage so I can tackle just about any repair/mod myself.

DrBoost wrote:

GregTivo wrote: All cars can be shaped to your needs, but unless we know more about your specifications, we're just going to give you our preferences, :)

I more or less summed it up in my OP, but here's a bit more info. I owned a Miata (92 with limited slip) and LOVED it! What an awesome car. Great chassis, could have used a few more ponies or I should have laid off the Big Macs when I was younger. I've never owned any BMW but always wanted to. What ever I get next will be my DD with occasional auto-Xing. I'm sure I won't have tons of money to mod it so the miata would be better in that respect but I can deal with it. I anticipate having a long commute (an hour each way) so comfort is pretty important. That being said, the miata was pretty comfy for long jaunts but not great. I would like to get decent mileage, the miata got 30-33 if I drove it like a minivan, 25-27 if I had fun. I'd like to get over 25 with a split of 60-65% highway driving. I'm good with a wrench and have a nicely equipped garage so I can tackle just about any repair/mod myself.

Go ahead and buy a BMW then and if you don't like it, its not like you can lose much money on it and you've already experienced the miata. I think you'll find the BMW a bit tamer experience, but more enjoyable for commuting around in (less road noise and vibration).

I have been resetting the on board computer on my '87 325is ever time I've filled the tank in the month that I have owned it. Over the past 1k miles, my tanks have been returning 23 to 28 mpg. The 28 came from a trip driving 2 lane road. It was mostly non stop driving but rarely over 60 mph. Heading in the 80 mpg range really drops the mpg. Keep in mind, when this car was new, the national speed limit was 55 mph. The 23mpg was about 50% stop and go.

My 2.5L 6 cyl BMW 325is gets about the same mpg as my 2.4L 5 cyl Volvo 850. Both cars are manual trans. I never keep an eye on the mpg of my Miata. I have learned that the Miata really does not get good mpg and that is mostly my fault. I have owned my Miata for over 17 years and have never wanted it to be my daily driver. Maybe when I was younger but now in my 40's the Miata is really not that comfortable but it is a great toy car.

DrBoost wrote:

P71 wrote: $5K will also get you a cherry 944...

Knock it off man! Another car on my "one day" list. I've thought a 944 as an option here. For some reason I pushed it out of my head though. Won't maintenance and repairs kill me? Can 5K buy be a cherry one? BTW, this would be a DD in snow country. Where do you live? If I get a Porsche I might have to shack up with you for a while as the wife will think I'm nutz.

Heheheheheee... $5K will net you a near cherry Turbo up here. A late model (nicer interior, aluminum suspension) can be had near museum quality at that price. Original ones even less ($3500 old interior case in point point: http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/ctd/1621279999.html )

I looked at them really, really close for months. Maintenance is way more expensive (no matter what anybody tries to convince you of) BUT if you do it yourself (buy the fancy factory tools) it becomes affordable. They handle really nicely, rev almost as good as a Miata, and are way more practical. The 944 is honestly probably a better 3rd leg of Trifecta then the P71.

And just to make it worse, Glenn "Hurricane" Hernandez, 2009 Nationals E-Stock R/U, is selling his extremely rare 924S factory lightweight (manual steering, hardtop, other stuff) with M030 suspension, spare wheels/Hoosiers, etc for $4500...

P71 wrote:

DrBoost wrote:

P71 wrote: $5K will also get you a cherry 944...

Knock it off man! Another car on my "one day" list. I've thought a 944 as an option here. For some reason I pushed it out of my head though. Won't maintenance and repairs kill me? Can 5K buy be a cherry one? BTW, this would be a DD in snow country. Where do you live? If I get a Porsche I might have to shack up with you for a while as the wife will think I'm nutz.

Heheheheheee... $5K will net you a near cherry Turbo up here. A late model (nicer interior, aluminum suspension) can be had near museum quality at that price. Original ones even less ($3500 old interior case in point point: http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/ctd/1621279999.html ) I looked at them really, really close for months. Maintenance *is* way more expensive (no matter what anybody tries to convince you of) BUT if you do it yourself (buy the fancy factory tools) it becomes affordable. They handle really nicely, rev almost as good as a Miata, and are way more practical. The 944 is honestly probably a better 3rd leg of Trifecta then the P71. And just to make it worse, Glenn "Hurricane" Hernandez, 2009 Nationals E-Stock R/U, is selling his *extremely* rare 924S factory lightweight (manual steering, hardtop, other stuff) with M030 suspension, spare wheels/Hoosiers, etc for $4500...

A cherry turbo for $5k!?!?! I'm living in the wrong state!

DrBoost wrote:

mtn wrote: I wouldn't rule out the 318. Reason to look at the E30 rather than the E36? Its a better car. E36 is newer, and arguably a nicer (more modern) interior, but its not a better car overall.

Can you (or anyone else) expound on these points (including the 318).

Well, bear in mind that I have an E30 318. So take it with a grain of salt.

I've been in a few E36's. They are nicer to me, but its apparent (to me) they are built to a price. This is especially apparent in the interior. Every button, ever switch, feels like a quality piece in the E30. I notice it everytime I drive it. I never noticed it in any of the E36's I've been in. Also, I just like the way that the E30 feels compared to the E36. Again, this needs to be taken with a grain of salt as I've never driven a manual E36.

As for the 318... Look at the GRM rat-rod from December of 2005. Or look at H-Stock nationals for the past however many years, there is one constantly in the top ten. Otherwise, its just an awesome engine (the M42 or M44). It is slow, but it doesn't feel slow. And I'm averaging 36 MPG, about 60highway40city.

If you're willing to move up to a larger vehicle, the E34s seem to be the big BMW bargain right now. Better interior quality than the E36, still very capable chassis, and excellent highway cars. Plus, you can opt for the newer, smaller M50-engined 525i, the older M20 525i (which should be super cheap), or the wonderful M30 big six 535i, or a V8 530i (also super cheap) or 540i if you're so inclined.

I own a 1990 Miata and and a1991 325i. I sold a 1993 325i to buy my e30. My wife has a 323i e46. All cars are 5speeds. The e46 is getting cheap but not in your price range yet. You know the Miata so I don't need to sell you on it. They can get tedious as DD especially if you have to have the top up. So i'll give my impressions of the e30 vs the e36.

The e36 is a nice driver. It has a quick steering ratio and the rear suspension is very stable. The back end comes around in a nice predictable manner. It is nicely balanced with just a touch of under steer. Steering with the throttle is smooth and easy. The 24v engines are really sweet. Nice fat torque band and the M50 has a rev happy feel to it. Mine had a noisy vanos that didn't really affect its performance but did make it less enjoyable to drive. Mileage was 22-24 mpg. in city traffic. The gear box in a 325 is a little weak compared the ZF in the M3 and 328i/s. The interior is cheap feeling and the door panels love to fall off. The headliners come down too. Watch the wiring going into the trunk. I enjoyed it more than my E46 and I still miss it (mostly the engine and the steering).

The E30 is more raw than the E36 and closer to the Miata in its interior noise level on the road. The E30 has a shorter wheel base and the rear suspension is "lively". The car has more under steer and the rear is less predictable. The steering ration is very slow compared to the Miata and the E36. All in all, it is more fun than the E36 but still solid and comfortable enough to drive on the highway. Although not as fast as the E36, the car has no trouble keeping up with other cars on the highway. The M20 is a stout little unit and has plenty of grunt (especially compared to the Miata). It really comes alive between 3500 and 5500 rpm. Not as rev happy as the M50 but still pretty smooth. Mileage is 18-20 mpg in city traffic. I also prefer the transmission and clutch in the E30.

As far as reliability goes, if both cars are well maintained, I give the nod to the E30. The E30 has superior build quality.

To me the E30 is like driving a classic car that is just modern enough to live with on a daily basis. I plan to add adjustable camber plates and perhaps a E36 steering rack in the near future.

About my Miata, "you'll have to pry it from cold dead hands". If I had to have just one car and didn't need back seats, Miata no contest.

To me the E30 is like driving a classic car that is just modern enough to live with on a daily basis

My wife could commute (1.5 hours each way into downtown DC) in pretty much any car she wanted... she prefers an E30 vert 5sp. (The only other car she's ever seriously considered was a Boxster...)

I attempted to have her move into my E36M3 vert (actually a lot smoother riding than her modded E30 and a lot more power)... in the end the E36 got sold and the E30 stayed.

Why? She sums it up exactly as you did...

Bill

I commute 30 miles each way every day in a 325is. I like them better than Miatas, especially as a daily driver. This one has wheels, tires, springs, shocks, bars, camber plates, chip, MAF conversion, exhaust, cold air intake, short shift kit, all urethane bushings, urethane motor mounts, and a late fuel pump conversion. Even with all that, it's perfectly comfortable as a DD. I also autocross the E30 M3 out of it.

DO EEEET!

Oh god the nose on your E30 is amazing Tommy. Want. Bad.

But here's another wrench in the gears if the OP is open to 2 seaters.

How's about an SW20 MR2?

$5k will get you the nicest N/A SW20 in the world, or a pretty decent Turbo.

My vote? Get a nice N/A, spend the rest of your budget on some mild modifications.

They're majorly different feeling than either the 3-series or the Mazda. They hit your MPG requirements, and they ARE handling monsters. They'll have about the same straight line thrust as either the 3-series or the Miata. Oh yeah, and they're dead nuts anvil-reliable. They also have some of the best brakes to ever come out of the 90s.

You decide you want to go whole hog with it later? You're limited only by your wallet in terms of how fast you want to go, and how to get there.