Mid-Engine Track Cars

Hello GRM! I have enjoyed reading the multitude of track car related threads as I am progressing further into the hobby. However I have noticed that there doesn't seem to be many mid-engine track cars and I am not sure why, my hypothesis is that "better on paper" doesn't fully translate to "better on track".

In your guys experience how do the affordable (<$10k purchase) mid-engine cars like the MR2 (all generations), Fiero, 914, Boxster (986), etc. stack up to what could be called the track car favorites (Miata, S2000, E30, E36, etc.)? Is the reason we don't see more of the mid-engine cars because of less aftermarket support for race parts (I know there are parts for the Porsches but they can be pricey)? Or does it have to do with the driving experience, with the mid-engine platform not being as forgiving around the limit and reducing the "fun"? Or is it something else entirely?

For a little back-story, I did Formula SAE for 6 years and loved running between the cones at autocrosses in that car. I now have a 944 that I use soley for autocross now and soon track days (once I finish the safety upgrades). Part of me really wants a mid-engine car because of the vehicle dynamics advantage they can have over the front engine rear drive cars. The other part realizes I am not competing (at least until I get a few years HPDE under my belt) for a while so it doesn't really matter what car I drive on track as long as I am learning and having fun! As a side note, I am not looking to replace my 944, this is more of a hypothetical next track car kinda of discussion, the ones that are most fun to have!!

I think it's because the downsides in practicality (much reduced cargo space) and aftermarket support (apart from Porsche and Lotus where the parts are crazy expensive) outweigh the handling advantages.

For me, it always came down to serviceability. When the first part of any major repair\upgrade reads: step 1) drop engine

that kinda kills it for me

Other reasons are that most affordable mid-engine cars are old and have less power than even a Miata. I mean, how much hp did the 914 have? Also, being old means that the suspension may not be as developed as newer cars, again, like the Miata. Lastly, they weren't exactly light either, versus, again, the Miata.

There are pros and cons to every chassis mentioned. The first gen mr2 had a short wheelbase and that made it twitchy at the limit. There are aftermarket suspension parts for these as well a huge market to upgrade the 4age engine. The problem with these is they are not good track cars for the money spent. Again- short wheelbase means you'll cream your drawers at every braking zone. The second gen helped a little with wheelbase. The third gen is expensive.

Fiero? Lol. Not many ppl love a car enough to dump wads of cash into it, and then Continue to dump wads of cash into it.

Porsche- yuck (my opinion)

You don't any of these cars at track days because of different reasons: the mr2 doesn't make a great track car, it's more at home in autocross. The fiero didn't make it to the track, it's being flat bedded back home. The Porsche arrived, saw the other cars knew what they were doing for less money, and went back home when he saw that he wasnt going to be the "superstar" he thought he would be. (He also got mega butt hurt when the 25year old Miata with 110hp passed him, and then lapped him)

Gameboy and Calteg hit the big points I have considered and here others discuss. I see plenty of Porsche Boxters and to a lesser extent Cayman's and Lotus/Loti are not overly rare at the trackdays I have been to but I have only seen 2 MRS Spyders and the same for MR2s. All had truck/trailer combos not driven to the track and back. I have only seen 1 Fiero and that was at a club race. Looking at working on the lower price point cars seems to really suck and they are getting long in the tooth to likely need it more often. I was just at a trackday weekend last week with 3 Elise,Exige,Evoras and 1 Cayman. 1 car ended early with mechanical issues and the others seem to do no work just ran well. I believe all were trailered so there is that added cost/complexity issues

1st gen MR2s are frequently overlooked..... Yes they only have 112hp stock... and yes because of their short wheelbase and the stock brake system, things can get interesting... but there are plenty of components available to make them faster, and more predictable

Part of the reason the "answer" remains the Miata are the rules are crafted to support the Miata..... (engine rules in particular)

GameboyRMH wrote: I think it's because the downsides in practicality (much reduced cargo space)

Not really. Cargo space is more about packaging than layout. A Boxster has lots of cargo space, while the lack of cargo space in a Solstice is shocking.

In my opinion, it's mostly just because people tend to buy what they know, and being 'better' at the track isn't enough to sell large quantities of cars. So aside from Porsche and the exotics, few manufacturers are able to effectively market mid-engine cars...If not many sell, or exist, there simply can't be all that many at the track. These economies of scale on front engine car, both stock and aftermarket, mean you can typically go faster for cheaper that way too...Even if it's not as precise or balanced. Consider that the vast majority of track day drivers are only extracting 100% from their cars when going in a straight line anyways, so that's where they'll still put the most emphasis on their car.

Trackmouse wrote: ...The Porsche arrived, saw the other cars knew what they were doing for less money, and went back home when he saw that he wasnt going to be the "superstar" he thought he would be...

LOL

Reminds me of the time last year that I went to a Porsche club autocross with my Sentra and set the second fastest time of the event. When I pulled up for my third run, the starter leaned in the window and said seriously, "You have to slow down!" On the other hand, everybody there was super nice to me and welcomed me wholeheartedly.

The MR2 can make a fine track car. The problem is age and the fact that modern track day clientele bring big HP and big tires. You're going to be pointing people by unless you're thinking Elise or Cayman/Boxster.

This was my first outing in my V6 MR2 and my first time on AMP. Tons of fun, but definitely taking it easy on a fresh swap that I drove to the track. I had a buddy there with a trailer, but still.

Car did great. Any oversteer you see was willful. Definitely not twitchy, but MR cars do handle differently and have to be chucked around with authority. The extra torque definitely overwhelmed the Porterfield R4s brake pads, which were spongy after 6-7 laps. I switched to Carbotech XP12s, and never had another problem.

There is also less room for a proper cage and a higher likely for injury if something bad happens...something to consider once you have a bunch of dependents running around.

1MZFE SW20

I have found that Porsche folks are really nice old guys. I've only met one young Porsche owner and he was a snob and believed he was cooler than most.

I also think that the "affordable" aspect limits the MR2 and Fiero. The former was built up from Corolla parts and the latter from Chevette parts...neither of which you think of when you think "race car". The Miata in comparison was built from a clean sheet to be a roadster, borrowing only a little from the 323GTX...a rally beast. I am oversimpifying of course, but most mid-engine cars that you can afford are parts-bin specials. (The second-gen MR2 was a bit too heavy IMHO and never caught on as a race car.) There are exceptions of course...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z7YGVEMlHPs

Besides, once you strip out all of the power windows, carpets, A/C, seats and such, it's much easier to get the balance of the car where you want it. There is also the question of factory support and contingency money. This is why Miatas and Neons did so well on the track. None was offered for the MR2 or Fiero that I can recall.

Thanks for the input! I can see how all these points above can easily tip the scales in favor of the more common track cars. I am a Porsche fan so a Cayman would be great to have though too pricey at the moment, same with an Elise.

The power/suspension-age/weight part is interesting because the MR2 Spyder is practically matched to an NB Miata, but obviously lacks the track-proven support so I could see how people would skip the MR2 in favor of the proven "answer".

It sounds like if I'm gonna go mid-engine than I need to be ready to do the development, my interest is in Time Trials where I think there could be an advantage but it wont be a cheap or easy path. This is what I thought but without a lot of experience wasn't sure. Even with all that in mind I am still eyeing MR2 Spyders and 986 Boxsters as entertaining track car options; the MRS because its light, and the Boxster for the sound (and because I'm a Porsche fan).

This is where I profess my undying love of AW11 MR2's, supported by my local SCCA-owned garage and a good friend that campaigns an ITsomething class first-gen MR2 in SCCA Club Racing, and has won races in it.

Here's the problems with the MRS: 1. They're fugly compared to their older sister, or the Miata....okay, that's subjective. 2. They're overpriced (reference point 1.) 3. They should have come with the 2ZZ in the first place, instead of the precat-munching 1ZZ...that's fixable.

The Mk2 MR2 is a car that is totally usable as a DD for a someone with no kids. It has craptons of room for it's size. The 'missus' came without a trunk.

If you ever get close to an MR2 race car compared to a same-generation Honda or Mazda race car, you can understand why they're overweight...Toyotas are overbuilt. The floorpan looks like a corrugated tin roof.

The Boxster and MR Spyder are both good choices, just make sure their known failure points are addressed before heading to the track. (IMS on Boxster, and oil starvation in Toyota.)

Going the budget route---- the 88 Fiero had the suspension redesign and is supposed to be a massive change from the earlier cars.

Although I'd save $$ and hold out for an Elise...... those are high on my bucket list.

In reply to pinchvalve:

That's the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.

The problem with the MR-S is just to get it on the track and get it home in one piece it is $750 for the roll bar and $450 for the oil pan plus any install fees. And then you still only have have a car on par with the Miata but you can get the Miata cheaper on the buy in and doesn't need an oil pan to not grenade it's motor.

I can pick up today a trackable miata for under $3K all day long. $5K gets me one already track prepped and ready to go. And that is why you see 100's of miatas at the track.

oldeskewltoy wrote: 1st gen MR2s are frequently overlooked..... Yes they only have 112hp stock... and yes because of their short wheelbase and the stock brake system, things can get interesting... but there are plenty of components available to make them faster, and more predictable Part of the reason the "answer" remains the Miata are the rules are crafted to support the Miata..... (engine rules in particular)

As fun and cool as AW11s are, I think it's understandable why they get overlooked as track cars.

Some of the biggest problems with the AW11 are the goofy and far from ideal suspension geometry (they're macstruts after all) combined with the limited space in the wheel wells, these put limits on the AW11's potential that the Miata never has to deal with - the Miata has very good suspension geometry and will swallow wheels bone stock that the AW11 would require fender rolling and a very careful selection of struts to fit.

Then add in the rarity of any part unique to the AW11, a relatively tiny aftermarket, and the costs of squeezing more power out of a 4AGE - which are huge by modern standards - and you can see why they're not that popular when going fast is a top priority.

Joe Gearin wrote: The Boxster and MR Spyder are both good choices, just make sure their known failure points are addressed before heading to the track. (IMS on Boxster, and oil starvation in Toyota.)

Don't forget pre-cat ingestion on the MR-S.

as Noted with the 88 Fiero.. Like many things GM does and did, they did not know what to do with the Fiero. Here was a car that marketing wanted developed as a grocery getter commuter car with sporting potential (which was sorely lacking in GM's stable at the time) and the engineers knew they could turn it into a Vette killer.

At the very end, when all it needed was a better engine to be that vette killer.. GM killed it.

The pre88 cars were extremely twitchy.. and not just at the limit. you will find that most of them in the Junk yards were backed into something at a high rate of speed.

bmw88rider wrote: I can pick up today a trackable miata for under $3K all day long. $5K gets me one already track prepped and ready to go. And that is why you see 100's of miatas at the track.

You see hundreds of Miatas at the track because they made a million of them. Literally. I think total production on the MR2 was about 120K, with most of them being the first gens.

What track days are you guys going to where you don't see Caymans and Boxsters?

The Cayman is one of the best, most rewarding to drive cars on the market.

There are atleast a handful at every event.

I think the other big issue is that low cost sports cars in general are a rare breed since the early 90's. Not like 1987 when nobody had horsepower but everybody had a lot of sporty cars in the lineup and there was room in the lineup for a mid engine niche car. I mean, Toyota had 3 performance chassis at the time (mr2, supra, Celica), plus a sporty version of the Corolla.

Doesn't mean it can't be done, it's what most big boy exotics are doing. Just that there's not enough market for a low cost mid-engine sports car these days.

Huckleberry wrote: What track days are you guys going to where you don't see Caymans and Boxsters? The Cayman is one of the best, most rewarding to drive cars on the market. There are atleast a handful at every event.

Yeah, there were a ton at the last track day I went to. There were also a ton of Elises, but that probably had more to do with it being a Golden Gate Lotus Club event. :)