More usable cage designs

So a few months ago, I asked the question of what would be more saleable- a race car or hot rod. Which the majority answer was hot rod. And the calls for my car backed that up pretty well.

For the most part, I can picture how I would modify my car so that it would retain the most of the cage, have a decent, but simple, interior, and be street legal (which it is now, for the most part).

What I can't picture is the cage modifications for the two doors. Right now, you have to twist and turn like a normal race car to get in. Which is fine for a full time race car. But if it's going to be a track car/hot rod, I would think it would need to be easier to use.

The car currently has two horizontal bars connected together, and the driver's side protrudes into the door- so the door is mostly cut apart for it to fit.

What I'm trying to picture is a change where a door with a real door card, windows, etc. can all be there, and there's a bar that still can be run for an occasional vintage race day.

One diagonal that starts high in the rear and goes down to the front is pretty obvious. But would that be enough for the occasional vintage race?

Or should I put together some bolt in solution that's temporary?

Would something removable work?

It wouldn't have to be a diagonal bar like the picture, but something that could be installed for competition, and removed for normal street driving seems like a nice compromise assuming it would be kosher with road course sanctioning bodies.

Or something like this:

In reply to STM317:

That would probably be the easiest way to keep something there.

The tigercage picture is what i would want in a dual purpose cage.

My next track/toy car will also be like the tigercage, but the back half will be built like a proper roll cage. I don't mind giving up the back seats.

My Golf's "sketchy cage", had 2 parallel bars on the driver and passenger side but did not protrude into the door cavities, the door cards were intact, save for the armrests. Since it was an autox only car, I first cut out the top bars, to make for easier access. I eventually removed the whole front part of the cage and just kept the rear roll bar. I like STM317's suggestions better though.

Is this an attempt to fatten your Alfa for sale?

Any cage is a compromise. Changing a good cage to a less good cage will change who might buy the car but it will exclude the other type of buyer. Spending money to change demographics of similar size is a pretty futile effort. Even if there are more hot rod buyers here - that might mot be true elsewhere. There are vintage racers with buying power for the right car too.

To get the widest market - leave the cage alone and change the price or advertise harder in the market you are already in. Do both actually.

Are you doing track days or wheel to wheel racing? If you're doing track days then a drag racing style swing out door bar is fine but if you're running wheel to wheel then you'll probably need some kind of bolt in door bar assembly to keep your competitors out of your lap if things go really badly. You'll also need to talk with your tech inspector to see if they'll allow the door bars to bolt in. That's going to require some interpretation of the rule book.

Maybe I'm just old school but I either want a bolt-in rollbar for some rollover protection and proper harnesses or a proper cage that will pass scrutineering.

In between is a strange world where you have an irreversible modification to the car that eliminates it from being returned to stock or competing.

Do your current door bars rule out windows? If not, I'd look at dressing out the door with some nice tinwork and a pullstrap.

Huckleberry wrote: Is this an attempt to fatten your Alfa for sale? Any cage is a compromise. Changing a good cage to a less good cage will change who might buy the car but it will exclude the other type of buyer. Spending money to change demographics of similar size is a pretty futile effort. Even if there are more hot rod buyers here - that might mot be true elsewhere. There are vintage racers with buying power for the right car too. To get the widest market - leave the cage alone and change the price or advertise harder in the market you are already in. Do both actually.

The problem is the race car market is really weak. I recently saw two cars that had more history and were nicer cars than mine sell for a price I was trying to sell my car for. And I was basing my price on what cars were selling for when I put it up for sale- there were a bunch of $30k race cars out there. So $20k was pretty reasonable. That's no longer the case- maybe never was.

On the other hand, I had quite a few people ask me if the car could be driven on the street. And I see more of those selling than actual race cars. Which is why I asked about that a few months ago. It appears there is more value to a streetable car than a race car.

Given the thin racer market, I'm ok with ignoring them.

BTW, given what these cars are, the market is nationwide. There's no "local" Alfa market.

Tyler H wrote: Do your current door bars rule out windows? If not, I'd look at dressing out the door with some nice tinwork and a pullstrap.

The driver's side does.

But I'm just looking at the car as something you could easily jump into for fun. And bolt in side bars if you want to take it to the track or vintage race it.

alfadriver wrote:

Tyler H wrote: Do your current door bars rule out windows? If not, I'd look at dressing out the door with some nice tinwork and a pullstrap.

The driver's side does. But I'm just looking at the car as something you could easily jump into for fun. And bolt in side bars if you want to take it to the track or vintage race it.

I think you have two distinct groups of buyers: those who want it as original as possible and those who want to race. Classic Venn diagram, where the smaller subset you're shooting for is the overlap of those two groups.

In Ontario you don't want to have any kind of a cage in a street driven car or you run into regulatory and insurance issues. Roll bars on convertibles being an exception.

Has this type of thing popped-up in the US at all?

In reply to Tyler H:

There appears to be a decent amount of the people who want a hot rod- more than a race car, at least.

It is feasible to convert it back to a street car, but it's not something I'd really want to do.

I guess I can try to sell it again, but it's depressing to see cars selling for $20k that used to sell for $30k a few years ago.

NOHOME wrote: In Ontario you don't want to have any kind of a cage in a street driven car or you run into regulatory and insurance issues. Roll bars on convertibles being an exception. Has this type of thing popped-up in the US at all?

I think it's a state by state issue. Here in Michigan if it's got 4 wheels, you can drive it legally. I have literally seen BigFoot (You know, the rednecks dream F150, not someone in a furry suit) driving down the road here with no one giving a E36 M3.

Eric, what would happen if you removed the cage completely? It's so long since I've seen the car, I can't remember how 'non stock' it appears? Could you put a pair of street seats and a carpet back in and make it look essentially stock?

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Eric, what would happen if you removed the cage completely? It's so long since I've seen the car, I can't remember how 'non stock' it appears? Could you put a pair of street seats and a carpet back in and make it look essentially stock?

This is a former ITB race car, so it's totally gutted.

The idea of putting an interior in has crossed my mind, but that's a lot of searching. Worse that I had most of the old interior a few years ago, and threw it away. Oops.

But I also have to put a new trunk in, as it's pretty much a fuel cell.

Not my gold car at all.

Personally, I won't street-drive anything with roll bar tubing forward of the driver's seatback.

If it can be done reasonably, I'd say cut out all of the cage forward of the main hoop to make it into a roll bar or "half cage".

Trade for LWB E38 with fresh timing chain guides? ;-)

A diagonal bar like the one in the pic isn't going to do you any big favors. If you get t-boned, it'll just help break bones better. Codrus has the right idea here.

LuxInterior wrote: A diagonal bar like the one in the pic isn't going to do you any big favors. If you get t-boned, it'll just help break bones better. Codrus has the right idea here.

I'm confused of what message you are making. It seems as if you are telling me that removing the door bars would result in a higher risk in more damage.

Which is fair.

So the suggestion is to remove the cage in front of the main hoop?

Wouldn't that increase the risk even more?

Cages put big hard steel bars in the interior in order to stiffen the structure and prevent things like walls, other cars, or the ground from intruding into the passenger space. The tradeoff is that if the driver is moving around in an accident, the impact with those bars can itself pose an injury risk, especially since they concentrate energy on a smaller area. In a race car, the driver is strapped tightly into a racing seat that is supposed to keep him from moving around, and is wearing a helmet to protect his head. 5/6-point harnesses suck in a street car, though, they take forever to put on and there's a lot of stuff in the car you can't reach while wearing one.

The safety equipment in a race car is a system, and if you pick one single element from that system to inject into a street car you can end up with something that's got unexpected consequences.

In reply to codrus:

I know that.

I'm more confused by the mixed message- taking door bars out is bad, so take more bars out. That's what I am reading.

And that makes no sense.

It should be- keep the door bars as part of the system- so keep them, or take most of it out as it's a street car system.

Leave the cage, double or triple the price call it an outlaw street legal racer, get some pro photos and video of it in an urban decay scene and maybe a mini documentary on how cool Alfa's are.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to codrus: I know that. I'm more confused by the mixed message- taking door bars out is bad, so take more bars out. That's what I am reading. And that makes no sense. It should be- keep the door bars as part of the system- so keep them, or take most of it out as it's a street car system.

Mixed message from whom?

IMHO there are two choices. 1) keep it a race car with all the race stuff, 2) make it a street car by removing all of the cage except for main hoop & rear diagonals to make a roll bar entirely behind the front seats. In either case I don't see any reason to fabricate new door bars.