Motor Trend COTY thoughts.

I was waiting for the "total energy" argument. Didn't want to start it myself. Don't have numbers that make either side's case, but dig this- In the 50's oil could be extracted and delivered at the ratio of 1 barrel expended to something like 55 barrels extracted and delivered, but now that ratio is somewhere between 2 and 3 barrels extracted and delivered for each barrel expended. It is not expected to get better as we try new techs like extracting from the sands in Canada. It would be great if I could find the source. The concept is called EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) and the return I could find varies between 3/1 and 15/1.

Teh E36 M3 wrote: I was waiting for the "total energy" argument. Didn't want to start it myself. Don't have numbers that make either side's case, but dig this- In the 50's oil could be extracted and delivered at the ratio of 1 barrel expended to something like 55 barrels extracted and delivered, but now that ratio is somewhere between 2 and 3 barrels extracted and delivered for each barrel expended. It is not expected to get better as we try new techs like extracting from the sands in Canada. It would be great if I could find the source. The concept is called EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) and the return I could find varies between 3/1 and 15/1.

Yeah it is amazing how much energy is consumed to actually make energy. COMPLETELY long and drawn out discussion that has no place (nor desire on my side) here.

Yeah...uhm. I just don't get how a car that doesn't exist yet in the market can be "Car of the Year". So far it's only paper and pictures. Wasn't the Volt already delayed (at least) once? I think that title should go to a car that is currently being sold and available. This is just a marketing ploy to keep the Volt in consumers minds for when (and if) it actually shows up at dealers. Motor Trend either must be on GM's payroll or GM is paying them for that title.

FlightService wrote:

Teh E36 M3 wrote: I was waiting for the "total energy" argument. Didn't want to start it myself. Don't have numbers that make either side's case, but dig this- In the 50's oil could be extracted and delivered at the ratio of 1 barrel expended to something like 55 barrels extracted and delivered, but now that ratio is somewhere between 2 and 3 barrels extracted and delivered for each barrel expended. It is not expected to get better as we try new techs like extracting from the sands in Canada. It would be great if I could find the source. The concept is called EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) and the return I could find varies between 3/1 and 15/1.

Yeah it is amazing how much energy is consumed to actually make energy. COMPLETELY long and drawn out discussion that has no place (nor desire on my side) here.

I am actually quite interested in the discussion of this topic. I agree it would completely muck up this thread though.

wlkelley3 wrote: Yeah...uhm. I just don't get how a car that doesn't exist yet in the market can be "Car of the Year". So far it's only paper and pictures. Wasn't the Volt already delayed (at least) once? I think that title should go to a car that is currently being sold and available. This is just a marketing ploy to keep the Volt in consumers minds for when (and if) it actually shows up at dealers. Motor Trend either must be on GM's payroll or GM is paying them for that title.

I confess I actually saw one on the road the other day, so they must exist.

MrJoshua wrote:

FlightService wrote:

Teh E36 M3 wrote: I was waiting for the "total energy" argument. Didn't want to start it myself. Don't have numbers that make either side's case, but dig this- In the 50's oil could be extracted and delivered at the ratio of 1 barrel expended to something like 55 barrels extracted and delivered, but now that ratio is somewhere between 2 and 3 barrels extracted and delivered for each barrel expended. It is not expected to get better as we try new techs like extracting from the sands in Canada. It would be great if I could find the source. The concept is called EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) and the return I could find varies between 3/1 and 15/1.

Yeah it is amazing how much energy is consumed to actually make energy. COMPLETELY long and drawn out discussion that has no place (nor desire on my side) here.

I am actually quite interested in the discussion of this topic. I agree it would completely muck up this thread though.

If only someone here could speak intelligently on it- I've heard some people speak to it, but don't know where to look for reliable numbers.

I think this thread is off the rails anyway....

In reply to Teh E36 M3:

Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket?

Start a thread and we can discuss the cost of energy. But I will not be participating for a few days. My kids are out of school and Daddy needs to make some snowballs and ride some sleds!!!

After reading the new posts here today i am somehow too tired to formulate a real response, but im really happy about how the discussion has gone.

Although, i am VERY minorly slightly saddened to find only one other Sienna-loving GRM'r in here.

Motion to rename thread to "Charged Volt Discussion"

I just noticed something. Does anyone know where the Volt is available?

"The Volt will begin showing up November 2010, but only in California, the Washington D.C. metro area, Michigan, Texas, New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. GM only plans to produce 10,000 the first production year, and nationwide availability won’t happen until late 2011."

So MotorTrend and Automobile magazine should have just as well given the award to the FCX or Leaf. They weren't even in the running (for their respective years.)

I am glad GRM has more journalistic integrity than those other jokers.

Does anyone know why MT has always bowed to the General?

MT bows to whoever has the biggest advertising budget.

Short version: Motor Trend's a joke.

I started reading this thread because I noticed the Motor Trend and COTY. I couldn't care less about the Volt, sorry. It doesn't fit my needs or wants in any shape form or fashio.

But.

I take the COTY with a heavy grain of salt... think anvil sized. Back in '98, we were shopping for a new car because the family was getting ready to expand(or explode) from us 2, to three. The truck wasn't going to cut it anymore. We didn't want to pay the premium for Honda and nothing else out there "spoke" to me. Then, I read the articles from MT about the '97 COTY. Anybody care toa hit th "way back" button and remember what the car was?

Chevy Malibu. We found a great deal and decided to test drive then purchase a '98, based mostly on our intitial test drive and the MT articles. We owned the car for 3 years... biggest piece of she_ite I've ever owned, bar none. Problems with the a/c, problems with the brakes, problems with the trasmission, etc...

Now, we know better and I'll read about th COTY for shiits and giggles... and won't ever touch another Cheby product. I buy things used, things that have some history and service behind them, fix them up if I have to, sell it later, and start the cycle all over.

Mark

In reply to vladha:

Do you want to explain your signature?

"No Daddy... it tastes like butt!"

So MotorTrend and Automobile magazine should have just as well given the award to the FCX or Leaf.

Im pretty sure they would have if they felt that they were that significant. I still dont see why you think a full-electric car that can go 70 miles at a time for $30k is that big of a deal. The whole reason hybrids came into being is because you COULDNT SELL THAT CRAP!

Seriously, MANY manufacturers have dipped their toes into that market and built electrics that could go that far, and they didnt need 2010 technology to do it, either.

There are still some 1993 dodge caravans on the road going 70 miles on an electric charge. Bet you didnt know that? It's under the radar because its.. dun dun dun.. NOT SIGNIFICANT!

As for the FCX, im pretty damn sure Motor Trend does not hold a 'fleet vehicle of the year' comparison, so that pretty much explains that. Until it hits the mass market (100 million people live in the states mentioned) it is simple NOT that significant in the market.

As for Vladha, if you want the new-car mags to decide winners based on predicting how reliable they will be in years to come, they might as well just throw all the names into a hat and grab one.

Although, oddly enough, if you had bought the 95,96, or 99 COTY you probably would have had a much better experience. Im guessing you wouldnt have bought the 98 vette based on the 4dr thing.

MT bows to whoever has the biggest advertising budget.

If that was true than a penis-enlargement product would have won at least ONCE by now!

Vigo wrote:

MT bows to whoever has the biggest advertising budget.

If that was true than a penis-enlargement product would have won at least ONCE by now!

Eh, product doesn't work anyway... not that I'd personally know.

Kind of like COTY doesn't really mean anything. At this point, it's way premature to predict what the Volt will do or how significant it is as a vehicle. until a few years have passed.

Why not use the "contenders" for a year and then see how they stack up? Right now, it's like giving the Oscar to a movie that hasn't even hit the theaters.

FlightService wrote: In reply to vladha: Do you want to explain your signature? "No Daddy... it tastes like butt!"

Long story short. When my daughter was little and I was putting her to bed, I used to kiss all her fingers and pretend to guess what she'd done that day. One night she starting laughing hysterically... you can fill in the rest.

In reply to vladha:

Ok, that's funny

In reply to Vigo:

According to GMs own website and your requirement of "fleet vehicle of the year," the Volt isn't eligible either. As for the Leaf, it is a great concept for the 2 markets they are in, (LA and Nashville) It is a good re-test of what the EV1, Ranger EV, S10 EV and everyone else has already done. Timing has to be right for these things.

For the record I wouldn't buy any of the hybrids or electrics, maybe a GEM but I only live 2.5 miles from home. and usually on drive about 10 miles a day.

Vigo go forth and enjoy your Volt, since you are in one of the limited areas that can get one, some one needs to.

Why not use the "contenders" for a year and then see how they stack up?

Well, to be realistic if they spent their time testing year old cars they wouldnt have time to test new cars. What kind of market is there for that? All you could do is wait a year and then point out who was wrong and right? Purely reactionary editorial, not what i want to read.

Although, they DO always do a 1yr test on every vehicle that wins COTY and at the end of the year test there is a pretty long wrap-up article written with the benefit of experience and time.

I wish I had caught that end of the year wrap-up article, though to be honest, I've never paid much attention(as in having to read every issue) of most car magazine... with an exception;).

Keep us informed about the Volt and the pertaining technologies. You're obviously intelligent and erudite... I wouldn't mind hearing more.

Mark