Having been around Daytona at 135mph in a bump draft with my Spec Miata, I can tell you the track looks really narrow when you go three wide coming out of NASCAR 4. And the track WAS very bumpy. The new paving has fixed a lot of that though. So if you don't think NASCAR drivers at Daytona are skilled, you are the dumbest MF'er on the planet.
I have a replay on Youtube of the last ten minutes of an enduro at Daytona from 2009, back when it was still bumpy. Just search for racerfink.
In reply to irish44j:
Motorsports are sports, but they are not athletics. There is a difference, but the line has been blurred in modern times. At one time, a sport was any type of contest after which a prizes was awarded or could be obtained. This is why a slain animal is called a trophy in hunting and hunters and anglers called sportsmen.
An athlete is someone who competes in activities which required outstanding physical prowess to succeed.
Auto racing, bull fighting and mountain climbing are the only real sports... all others are just games - Ernest Hemingway.
Then he shot himself.
In reply to ddavidv:
Just like wrestling, every race is a personal grudge match. The people who by into the soap opera part of NASCAR are the same people who don't realize that Jeff Foxworthy, Bill Engvall and Larry the Cable Guy are deriding and exploiting their lifestyles, not gorifying them.
Moparman wrote: In reply to ddavidv: The people who by into the soap opera part of NASCAR are the same people who don't realize that Jeff Foxworthy, Bill Engvall and Larry the Cable Guy are deriding and exploiting their lifestyles, not gorifying them.
His early standup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqm-vKWEkoU
he still has an accent shift when not in character
http://www.tmz.com/2008/11/19/larry-the-cable-guy-cant-hang-with-fake-twang/#.T0Jkfs3OzAI
Moparman wrote: In reply to ddavidv: Just like wrestling, every race is a personal grudge match. The people who by into the soap opera part of NASCAR are the same people who don't realize that Jeff Foxworthy, Bill Engvall and Larry the Cable Guy are deriding and exploiting their lifestyles, not gorifying them.
:)
Joey
iceracer wrote: "Drivers have no skills" Anyboy watch Kyle Bush last night..
+million
I don't like the character he plays in front of the camera, but to say he lacks talent is ridiculously ignorant. Most of the NASCAR guys these days would be fast in anything.
My 2cents: I've gone to over 100 cup races, not a bad score for a Damn Yankee from Connecticut. NASCAR has lost it's way because they forgot that the talking heads in the booth or the concert and the fireworks were the reason we went to see races. They killed the car indentity, restricted the driver indentity and treated the average fan as a brainless ATM. You used to have to pay for Daytona 500 tickets 50 weeks in advance, now they advertise them for sale during the Shootout. The drivers are still as skilled, the teams work as hard as 20 years ago, but the management has lost sight of what made the product: You went to cheer for a driver and a car, not to sit thru a barely audible concert and too loud hip hop waiting 3 hours for the race start.
As far,as being an athlete. How many can do a backflip off the window sill of their car after driving for 4 hrs in a an exhaustingly hot car. Most of the drivers have a personal trainer and work out regularly. Tha car manufacturers are very much involved. Why else would Toyota spend megga bucks to develop an engine . I would like to see NASCAR get up to date with the engines though, perhaps a 4L DOHC. No one uses push rods any more except Chevrolet. Hmmm Representative Mustangs and Chargers are running in the Nation wide series. I understand that development is going on for 2013 to have the cars look more like their street cousins.
[ignore] this thread [/ignore]
In reply to iceracer:
Obviously there are many athletic drivers. Heck, there are many non-athletic baseball players. As for 2013, the cars will have more identifiable noses and tails, but otherwise fit a template. Run what you brung.
Also, I was referring to the comment about autocross drivers. Most top-level pro drivers of very athletic.
sergio wrote: Using "debris" cautions to bunch up the field is bogus.
A relative of mine was for many years one of the "Three Wise Men" in race control at Daytona. Other family members and relatives have for many years worked as track spotters during various NASCAR events.
This really happens: a radio call goes out from race control saying "Find me some debris."
Dang. I have to change my identity and start a new life now.
1-Forget the drivers. Real car enthusiasts are fans of the hardware, not the waterey sack of flesh between the steering wheel and the seat.
2-Forget the "car of tomorrow" and in fact the whole blueprint of the last 3 decades. Change the rules to say that the manufacturers MUST sell what they race. This will force the manufacturers to build good stuff again. Let them run stock chassis, efi, etc. Deregulate tech, let the showrooms dictate what races. And the homologation needs to be well into thousands of units sold, not just a few hundered special cars that were sold under the radar. Wouldn't it be titts to see production based Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, and Cadillacs battling it out, door handle to door handle?
3-Forget the restrictor plates. That being said, the restrictor plates are there for the safety of the spectators, which will be solved by #4-----
4- put a chicane in the backstretch of every super oval on the nascar circuit. It's just boring to go in big circles.
5- Stop being weenies about the weather. Put on some big girl panties and get some rain tires and wipers, and run in the rain.
6- Localize cautions. If there is debris on one side of a 2.5 mile track, do we really need to shut the whole thing down. Other racing series' do it, with much faster cars than stock cars. Basically, once the race starts, grow some balls and run the damn thing till it's over, too bad if Bubba in the stands needs a piss break from all the cheap beer he's been guzzling.
Aeromoto wrote: 5- Stop being weenies about the weather. Put on some big girl panties and get some rain tires and wipers, and run in the rain. 6- Localize cautions. If there is debris on one side of a 2.5 mile track, do we really need to shut the whole thing down. Other racing series' do it, with much faster cars than stock cars. Basically, once the race starts, grow some balls and run the damn thing till it's over, too bad if Bubba in the stands needs a piss break from all the cheap beer he's been guzzling.
These kinds of remarks really annoy me...it's easy to be a tough guy from behind a keyboard. Have you ever raced in the rain, in any series, at any speed? It's scary as hell - I don't want to know what it would feel like at 200mph next to a brick wall.
As far as the caution flags go I agree that some of them are questionable, but with the cars lapping the course every 90 seconds or so that doesn't leave a lot of time for someone to run out and grab debris off the track.
Aeromoto wrote: 4- put a chicane in the backstretch of every super oval on the nascar circuit. It's just boring to go in big circles.
Mind.
Blown.
I'd probably start watching NASCAR if they had a chicane on each of the "straights". Would make for some intense battling!
In reply to irish44j:
I got the pleasure of going to Darren Manning's house one time for work and struck up a conversation while there. I happened to notice a contraption in his living room that was a frame with a steering wheel on one end of a shaft and an arm with weights on the other. He told me to give it a go and it required a lot of effort to turn. He said it simulated the force required to turn an (at the time) IRL car's steering wheel at speed during cornering on an oval. That proved to me that a certain athletic skill is required to drive professionally.
stuart in mn wrote:Aeromoto wrote: 5- Stop being weenies about the weather. Put on some big girl panties and get some rain tires and wipers, and run in the rain. 6- Localize cautions. If there is debris on one side of a 2.5 mile track, do we really need to shut the whole thing down. Other racing series' do it, with much faster cars than stock cars. Basically, once the race starts, grow some balls and run the damn thing till it's over, too bad if Bubba in the stands needs a piss break from all the cheap beer he's been guzzling.These kinds of remarks really annoy me...it's easy to be a tough guy from behind a keyboard. Have you ever raced in the rain, in any series, at any speed? It's scary as hell - I don't want to know what it would feel like at 200mph next to a brick wall. As far as the caution flags go I agree that some of them are questionable, but with the cars lapping the course every 90 seconds or so that doesn't leave a lot of time for someone to run out and grab debris off the track.
Uhhmm...., as far as running in the rain, have you ever heard of Formula 1, LeMans series, etc?
To address some other points in the thread.
A) Nationwide has run in the rain at Gilles Villenuve(sp?) some drivers decided to run wipers the others got screwed.
B) Nationwide also uses Challengers and Mustangs instead of Chargers and Tauruses. I know it is still a template body with different stickers but the Nationwide bodies don't use the same type of common COT.
I actually have started watching more nationwide because of the changes. I think it is a good idea to make it more like the old Trans Am than another roundy-round deal.
I am sorry but top level racers ARE athletes. They are in every bit as good a shape as a top level wide receiver or soccer midfielder or point guard. Sure at the smaller levels of motorsports they may not be but neither are a lot of players competing at local levels of other sports.
Aeromoto wrote: Uhhmm...., as far as running in the rain, have you ever heard of Formula 1, LeMans series, etc?
Of course those series run in the rain, but they also crash a lot when they do so. It doesn't mean the NASCAR drivers are less 'manly' for not doing it.
stuart in mn wrote: These kinds of remarks really annoy me...it's easy to be a tough guy from behind a keyboard. Have you ever raced in the rain, in any series, at any speed?
Yes. If I can do it, and every other club, amateur and pro series can do it... so can stock cars. In fact, they have in the past. It should be mandatory for road courses in the very least but there isn't any reason they can't run an oval in the wet. How many times have we seen Grand Am or ALMS manage the banks at Daytona in a Florida deluge? It requires some setup change, tires and a different strategy.
In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:
They've stopped races at the Sebring 12hr. because of rain. It's downright stupid to race in the rain on an oval. Period. It's not because they don't want to race in the rain. It's because the grooved tires would not stand up to the abuse. They would overheat severely and chunk, if not outright blow out, within a few laps, leading to more cautions.
racerfink wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: They've stopped races at the Sebring 12hr. because of rain. It's downright stupid to race in the rain on an oval. Period. It's not because they don't want to race in the rain. It's because the grooved tires would not stand up to the abuse. They would overheat severely and chunk, if not outright blow out, within a few laps, leading to more cautions.
Drive slower in the rain, maybe?
There's no reason to expect that you could drive exactly the same speeds around an entire oval with your foot mashed to the floor if the track is wet with no consequences.
racerfink wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: They've stopped races at the Sebring 12hr. because of rain. It's downright stupid to race in the rain on an oval. Period. It's not because they don't want to race in the rain. It's because the grooved tires would not stand up to the abuse. They would overheat severely and chunk, if not outright blow out, within a few laps, leading to more cautions.
They have stopped 24hr races at Daytona because of so much rain the cars were plowing it like snow but up to that point - they keep on keepin' on. Lap after lap. In the dark, in the rain, on the banking and braking much harder / hotter than a cup car ever has to. The grooved tires on those 3500lb FRC500s seemed to do just as fine as the ones on the prototypes. I understand there are current reasons they do not, right now, run stock cars on ovals in the rain. There are plenty of technical solutions that make it more than possible - we can see them in action everywhere but NASCAR and Indy.
I don't particularly care if they do or don't - I'm only tuning in for the road racing anyway. I have no dog in this fight but for the record - I'd make baseball play in the berkeleying rain too.
icaneat50eggs wrote: I disagree, all those others are games. Mr. Hemmingway is far better with words than I, so I will use his.Ernest Hemingway said: There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
Hemingway never drove a dogsled 1,000 miles.
Wow, there is an awful lot of hate and vitriol in here for a race series you don't even have to watch. Don't like it, change the channel. That's what I do, even though it's one of the most followed race series in the US if not the world. Fact is, millions of people watch every race. Take the biggest name in Grand Am and most people have never even heard of him. You can't say that about NASCAR drivers. Billions of dollars are made by NASCAR sponsors and the racers themselves. If road racing was as popular, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Guess what, it's not, get over it. Hate it all you want but they draw more money than any other form of racing in this country and money talks louder than any of you do.
Now, if you want the WWF of motorsports, check out Monster Jam. Love those guys. They get more TV air time than sports car racing. Why? Because the people that watch it spend money with sponsors. Until sports car racing becomes the same kind of cash cow, it's going to play second fiddle to everything else.
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