Wouldn't more power require larger tires, additional chassis reinforcements, more driveline beefiness, among other things to maintain the same balance? These all add cost and weight, neither of which is desirable when engineering to a warranty and price point.
Mitchell wrote: Wouldn't more power require larger tires, additional chassis reinforcements, more driveline beefiness, among other things to maintain the same balance? These all add cost and weight, neither of which is desirable when engineering to a warranty and price point.
20 horsepower wouldn't require any of those. Its not like I am asking for 50 more horsepower.
Am I wrong in thinking that the people who want 20-30more hp from a ND miata will be able to get it relatively easily in the aftermarket, while most the buyers will be people who just think its a cute/fun/small car that will probably get good gas mileage to tool around in.
All jokes aside remember originally the reason the miata had so many hairdressers car jokes certainly was not for its performance capabilities. I honestly feel like the whole performance miata thing started gaining momentum once the NA's were cheap enough for people to really play with.
I mean maybe someone else can chime in but I would think intake/header/exhaust/tune on a car coming from the factory to run on 87 octane should be quite a bit of head room without even doing much more?
Actually, 20-30 hp has always been hard to get on a Miata. 30 hp is the same amount of work as 80 hp. When you're dealing with 2.0L or less, there simply aren't any easy pickings. Here's a dyno chart for a new header/cat/exhaust on a 1999, the model year with the worst factory header: http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_runs/1999_header_cat_exhaust.pdf
Would an extra 20 hp have added any weight/cost/strength? Definitely. You're talking about 13% more power (assuming 155 hp), so everything needs to be 13% stronger. Now, that doesn't sound like a big deal unless you're a corporation that's expected to warranty these parts under very tough conditions.
We have a case study, actually! The standard 2004 Miata was rated for 142 hp or so. The MSM was rated at 176. In order to withstand this onslaught of another 34 hp, Mazda uprated the halfshafts. You can't bust a halfshaft with a stock 2004 Miata, but Mazda felt it needed to increase the size (and weight) of the ones on the turbo car. Same with the transmission internals. A part that was strong enough to handle double the power was given extra treatment. The clutch was changed as well.
So yes, there are knock-on effects for more power. Mazda ran the numbers and decided to go with what they decided. Is there an MSM in the future? Maybe. Perhaps they're leaving some headroom for that car. The original one sold dismally, though, it would take some guts to try it again.
So I wonder how built the MX-5 cup cars are going to be? How much built up are the motors etc on the ones in use now based on the NC?
Not very. I think they get an intake and an ECU, then they get sealed. Since they're only racing against each other, absolute power isn't critical. Reliability is paramount, then a level playing field.
One word for those who want more NA power from their Miata's.
Cosworth
Ford and Mazda have shared engines for how long now? The other side of the pond is already playing with direct injection "Duratec" engines. It will only be a matter of time before their parts start getting bolted to the ND MIATA, or 3 or...
Miata's have been some of the most raced, modified, tinkered with, and experimented on cars probably on the planet. Will there be a 'speed version? Don't know. But I'll put money on companies like Flying Miata, and their competitors supporting the new cars. Hell, after driving a boosted NA for awhile, a naturally aspirated Miata while still a riot to drive, is nowhere near as much fun. Half the fun (and headache) was being part of the group that put it together and tuned it, getting seat time with it spoiled me. While I want one for the stable, the idea of putting my wife behind the wheel of it without more training in slide/spin recovery scares the hell out of me. And I promise you, if the keys are handy, she will drive it.
Point is, stop crying. Most of us here won't have one in the garage for at least another few years. By then the aftermarket will be going strong.
Approx. the same weight, same dimensions, but significantly more power than an NA? Sounds great!
I'm in no rush to buy one because cheapass. But its great to know that in 10-20 years I'll still have awesome used sports cars available.
People will always find something to complain about.
If it had 50 more hp then everyone would complain about the 50/50 weight distribution being thrown off or the extra cost or the increase in weight or it needing to take premium gas.
^^ all too true
Keith Tanner wrote: Not very. I think they get an intake and an ECU, then they get sealed. Since they're only racing against each other, absolute power isn't critical. Reliability is paramount, then a level playing field.
What about the Grand Am/Continental ST cars?
I don't know anything about them.
I wonder if a rollbar will fit under a hard top on these.
I wonder how easily you can remove the factory roll bar thingy.
Keith Tanner wrote: The original one sold dismally, though, it would take some guts to try it again.
The original one sold dismally because, in factory condition, it was a pretty dismal car. You know that, you guys sell the parts to fix most of the stupid bits in them. :)
I don't understand why the MSM got such a half-hearted and poorly-thought-out upgrade, while the Mazdaspeed 3 got all the goodies. I guess the MSM was the one they did first and had to learn from.
In reply to codrus: I think he might have been using a bit of sarcasm. While (adjusted for inflation) the early cars were pretty expensive, they sold like crazy. Have a look at the MX5 Wikipedia page. Guiness records are discussed.
I loved my 95 Miata, I loved my 99 Miata even more.
This seems to be a better version of those, so I'm very much looking forward to trying it. Not sure if I'll get one, but I will certainly look at one, new.
You Miata guys sure are a whiney bunch 
codrus wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: The original one sold dismally, though, it would take some guts to try it again.The original one sold dismally because, in factory condition, it was a pretty dismal car. You know that, you guys sell the parts to fix most of the stupid bits in them. :) I don't understand why the MSM got such a half-hearted and poorly-thought-out upgrade, while the Mazdaspeed 3 got all the goodies. I guess the MSM was the one they did first and had to learn from.
It was because the MSP followed the MSM and they did the same horrible cheapining job with those 2, they figured they would finally get their E36 M3 right with the MS6 from the mistakes of the past.
Having grown up in the 80's when there were Citations, K-cars, and Escorts with near zero excitement, and no end in sight, I am simply amazed that Mazda has had a 25 year run making reliable versions of the Midgets and Spitfires I loved back then. Buy a Hellcat (which I also can't believe is in production) if you need more power. We truly do live in a golden age with a niche vehicle for every taste. I love the new Miata. It is the ONLY new car I would consider purchasing.
I reeeeeealy like my NC. I'll still give the ND a test drive when it comes to the dealer.
Every time I see a picture of one, I think it's a photoshopped z4. To me it doesn't look like an original design, it looks derivative of several other manufacturers styling efforts. Too bad because I think the other body styles have their own look. I think most real new miata buyers won't really morn the low power output. Once they're old enough to be cheap, there will be aftermarket solutions to the power problem, and the people who care will pay people like Keith to solve it.
Carbon, they don't look Z4 at all in person. It's original and very good looking. I think the scale gets lost on pics - the headlights are tiny and the wheels are small by current trends, so your reference points are skewed.
Once they're old and cheap, people will say "I can't pay $x for a turbo system that doubles the power! I only paid $y for the whole car" 
JtspellS wrote:codrus wrote:It was because the MSP followed the MSM and they did the same horrible cheapining job with those 2, they figured they would finally get their E36 M3 right with the MS6 from the mistakes of the past.Keith Tanner wrote: The original one sold dismally, though, it would take some guts to try it again.The original one sold dismally because, in factory condition, it was a pretty dismal car. You know that, you guys sell the parts to fix most of the stupid bits in them. :) I don't understand why the MSM got such a half-hearted and poorly-thought-out upgrade, while the Mazdaspeed 3 got all the goodies. I guess the MSM was the one they did first and had to learn from.
The MSP was first. At the time, Mazda was reaching out to aftermarket companies for the MSM. The Callaway- tuned MSP was such a monumental screwup that Mazda pulled back and did the MSM in-house.
I'm not saying the MSM wasn't good for us – it was very good. And thanks to our work, they actually appreciated slightly for the first few years after they went off the market. But none of that money went into Mazda's pockets, so they don't care. And they spent a boatload on that car with a whole bunch of upgrades as noted earlier.
Still, the MS3 seems to have done well. And if they're planning an MSM right from the start, it may be a very well integrated car. So there's hope, assuming Mazda's product planners think it would actually sell.
I will say that I have never liked the look of the NC, but I love the look of the ND.
Keith Tanner wrote: Would an extra 20 hp have added any weight/cost/strength? Definitely. You're talking about 13% more power (assuming 155 hp), so everything needs to be 13% stronger. Now, that doesn't sound like a big deal unless you're a corporation that's expected to warranty these parts under very tough conditions. We have a case study, actually! The standard 2004 Miata was rated for 142 hp or so. The MSM was rated at 176. In order to withstand this onslaught of another 34 hp, Mazda uprated the halfshafts. You can't bust a halfshaft with a stock 2004 Miata, but Mazda felt it needed to increase the size (and weight) of the ones on the turbo car. Same with the transmission internals. A part that was strong enough to handle double the power was given extra treatment. The clutch was changed as well. So yes, there are knock-on effects for more power.
Your conclusion is faulty logic. The MSM is not a fair comparison because it was an uprated model after the fact.
The cost difference between making car A with 150hp and car B with 175hp, AND the intention that only one will be made is a wash.
I mean, you can argue that "larger" pieces of equipment cost more money, but they really don't. Engineering costs are the same, manufacturing costs are the same, the only difference is literally material costs. Just because something has to be built "stronger" does not inherently mean "more expensive".
A T56 transmission brand new is the same price as X transmission in whatever low power car you want to compare it to (I am generalizing here). The point is, saying that more power means a higher price is a cop-out, because it is (for the most part) false. Its like the pricing difference between a mid-size and full-size pickup. They are close to the same price when spec'd in a similiar fashion, but one should be cheaper. As the people have told us who work for the manufactures, this is due to there being an inherent "bottom line" in building vehicles. There is a bottom line to building a miata, at which point it simply doesn't become cheaper to build. When you have a motor that you could stick in it (2.5L) vs the 2.0L, I ask again, why not?
If anything, the fuel mileage numbers is the most legitimate reason for Mazda doing this, which is silly because Mazda on a per car sold basis probably has one of the better average corporate fuel economy numbers.
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