Jaynen wrote: Am I wrong in thinking that the people who want 20-30more hp from a ND miata will be able to get it relatively easily in the aftermarket
Yes, you are wrong. Look up performance parts for any of the DI motors, and specifically, the 2.0L in the mazda 3. Non-existent.
In reply to HiTempguy:
I'll preface this with...I was working in the auto parts manufacturing industry since 1983 , so I have lots of experience with manufacturing and delivery costs of parts to OEM assemblers of vehicles.
If you were the chief engineer on the Miata and came to me and asked what the cost increase would be to go from a proposed 155 HP to a proposed 175 HP I could figure it out down to fractions of a penny. And, that's really how costing in the industry is done, down to the fourth decimal place on the dollar.
Let's say I'm the manufacturer of the connecting rods. I start by forging the rod blank. The 175 rod will take slightly more force to forge, so there will be fewer blanks in the forge press than for the 155 rod.It might only be 1 unit less, but it's less and it costs when I look at the cost/stroke to buy, maintain and run that press.
The 175 HP rod will be heavier, so my material cost goes up. More material has to be removed from machining the area where the crank bearing sits because it will be a marginally larger surface to machine.This takes a small but finite amount more time.
After machining the finished rod goes in a tote to be shipped. There will be fewer rods in the tote for a 175 motor than a 155 motor. Both totes will end up weighing the same and the same number of totes (but fewer rods) will end up in the truck. The truck won't be filled because you can only load it up to the weight limit and at that limit there will be fewer 175 rods than 155 rods, so the freight per piece went up.
Also, at my shipping door I pay a guy with a forklift to load said truck. It takes him the same amount of time to load a 155 truck or a 175 truck because they have the same number of totes,but different numbers of rods, so the labour cost per rod to load the truck went up. Every time that loaded tote is moved by a forklift that cost is higher for the heavier rod even though the tote weight is the same.
Oh, and the number of trailers shipped annually is costed, so to produce the 175 HP Miata I will send more trucks per year....more cost.
My lift truck moves fewer parts annually, too. More cost.
My warehouse space occupied by the 175 rods is more than for the 155 rods. More cost.
People have no idea the compounding effects when you do something that ,at first glance seems pretty simple. It is far from just a material cost increase. I ran into exactly this kind of scenario repeatedly and I was usually arguing with our own sales guys !
The margins in the auto industry are very,very thin and any change causes ripple effect that you have to be aware of , or come the end of the fiscal year you're left wondering how you lost money on a program.
I lived this kind of scenario all too often. I'll tell you that there is a very real cost to build a 175 HP Miata instead of a 155 HP one. How much difference in Mazda's cost depends on every component that is designed a touch heavier for the extra power and that extra horsepower will affect every component in the drive train and the suspension. Their $26K (guess) pricing will end up noticeably higher because of it.
Keith Tanner wrote: ... I've been tuning out all the ND whining for about three years now. Expectations for this car are so ridiculously high that nothing will possibly satisfy. It looks like a little F-type Jag. It's small. It's light. It has a lower CG. It has LED headlights. Seriously, it's an awesome little thing. According to R&T, it handles too...
I am going to be disappointed if cost's more than $5995.00, has less than 856.5 horsepower and it introduction doesn't usher in a new era of world peace and understanding. Is that too much to ask from Mazda?
This will probably get lost in all the complaining; but as long as it makes good noises, and the tach needle races to the redline, such that it's always asking for another gearchange... I'm good with it at any power level.
DeadSkunk wrote: In reply to HiTempguy: I'll preface this with...I was working in the auto parts manufacturing industry since 1983 , so I have lots of experience with manufacturing and delivery costs of parts to OEM assemblers of vehicles. If you were the chief engineer on the Miata and came to me and asked what the cost increase would be to go from a proposed 155 HP to a proposed 175 HP I could figure it out down to fractions of a penny. And, that's really how costing in the industry is done, down to the fourth decimal place on the dollar. Let's say I'm the manufacturer of the connecting rods. I start by forging the rod blank. The 175 rod will take slightly more force to forge, so there will be fewer blanks in the forge press than for the 155 rod.It might only be 1 unit less, but it's less and it costs when I look at the cost/stroke to buy, maintain and run that press. The 175 HP rod will be heavier, so my material cost goes up. More material has to be removed from machining the area where the crank bearing sits because it will be a marginally larger surface to machine.This takes a small but finite amount more time. After machining the finished rod goes in a tote to be shipped. There will be fewer rods in the tote for a 175 motor than a 155 motor. Both totes will end up weighing the same and the same number of totes (but fewer rods) will end up in the truck. The truck won't be filled because you can only load it up to the weight limit and at that limit there will be fewer 175 rods than 155 rods, so the freight per piece went up. Also, at my shipping door I pay a guy with a forklift to load said truck. It takes him the same amount of time to load a 155 truck or a 175 truck because they have the same number of totes,but different numbers of rods, so the labour cost per rod to load the truck went up. Every time that loaded tote is moved by a forklift that cost is higher for the heavier rod even though the tote weight is the same. Oh, and the number of trailers shipped annually is costed, so to produce the 175 HP Miata I will send more trucks per year....more cost. My lift truck moves fewer parts annually, too. More cost. My warehouse space occupied by the 175 rods is more than for the 155 rods. More cost. People have no idea the compounding effects when you do something that ,at first glance seems pretty simple. It is far from just a material cost increase. I ran into exactly this kind of scenario repeatedly and I was usually arguing with our own sales guys ! The margins in the auto industry are very,very thin and any change causes ripple effect that you have to be aware of , or come the end of the fiscal year you're left wondering how you lost money on a program. I lived this kind of scenario all too often. I'll tell you that there is a very real cost to build a 175 HP Miata instead of a 155 HP one. How much difference in Mazda's cost depends on every component that is designed a touch heavier for the extra power and that extra horsepower will affect every component in the drive train and the suspension. Their $26K (guess) pricing will end up noticeably higher because of it.
Oy vey, that's bleak.
I guess that's why the musclecar era is so romanticized. The big 3 just built stuff "because".
In reply to gamby:
We consumers can buy a car today with far more quality and features than our fathers could, and the adjusted price is less than they paid back in the day. The cost cutting over the last 3 decades has resulted in a better understanding of the real cost structure .
Is it bleak? I don't think so. Mazda, or any other OEM could decide to build a 300 HP open sports car. All I'm pointing out is that there are costs involved that never occur to the consuming public, or unfortunately for me (before I retired) to a few of the sales and design folks where I worked. If the industry had continued to operate they way it did in 1983 the Big Three would all be gone, or a car that currently costs $30K would be more like $45K, I think.
In reply to sjd: Interesting comment. I'm part of a fairly active group of people who own Miatas. Almost none of whom have even considered a NC. And a few people I know that bought a NC first, then drove an earlier car, preferred the earlier car too.
Many find the NC to be too much like an Avalon or a German ride, rather than a Miata. We're hoping there will be more NA or NB than NC in the newest model!
Spinout007 wrote: One word for those who want more NA power from their Miata's. Cosworth Ford and Mazda have shared engines for how long now? The other side of the pond is already playing with direct injection "Duratec" engines. It will only be a matter of time before their parts start getting bolted to the ND MIATA, or 3 or...
FYI - Ford & Mazda do not share an engine. Mazda developed the current (SKYACTIV) super high compression engines in house. No Ford stuff applies anymore.....
HiTempguy wrote:Jaynen wrote: Am I wrong in thinking that the people who want 20-30more hp from a ND miata will be able to get it relatively easily in the aftermarketYes, you are wrong. Look up performance parts for any of the DI motors, and specifically, the 2.0L in the mazda 3. Non-existent.
There wasn't much aftermarket for the BP before the Miata came around, either.
I think the current atmosphere has more to do with people buying base Mazda 3s and not modding them because well... they're base Mazda 3s.
Dashpot wrote:Spinout007 wrote: One word for those who want more NA power from their Miata's. Cosworth Ford and Mazda have shared engines for how long now? The other side of the pond is already playing with direct injection "Duratec" engines. It will only be a matter of time before their parts start getting bolted to the ND MIATA, or 3 or...FYI - Ford & Mazda do not share an engine. Mazda developed the current (SKYACTIV) super high compression engines in house. No Ford stuff applies anymore.....
Good to know
MCarp22 wrote: This will probably get lost in all the complaining; but as long as it makes good noises, and the tach needle races to the redline, such that it's always asking for another gearchange... I'm good with it at any power level.
I can get on board with this!
Rupert wrote: In reply to sjd: Interesting comment. I'm part of a fairly active group of people who own Miatas. Almost none of whom have even considered a NC. And a few people I know that bought a NC first, then drove an earlier car, preferred the earlier car too. Many find the NC to be too much like an Avalon or a German ride, rather than a Miata. We're hoping there will be more NA or NB than NC in the newest model!
Yup. I am involved with an active group of NA/NB owners as well, many with forced induction and most are autox/track enthusiasts. I was one of the few with a modified NC (Setup for STR) for a long time and when some of the modded NA/NB FI guys tried my car out they were seriously impressed. I'll admit that stock versus stock the NC is softer and yes it does weigh a bit more but modified its the better car. IMO.
There's no question the NC is faster when sorted, other than the greater range of really high-end power adders for the NA/NB. My interpretation? The NA/NB feel faster than they are. The NC is faster than it feels. The former behavior is great for having fun on the street, the latter attribute is more effective in competition.
The NC also got better with time. If the 2013-15 model had been introduced in 2006, I suspect we'd all have a very different viewpoint of the car. The demographics of NC owners are definitely different than those of the NA/NB were when those cars were new - their average age is higher than any other Mazda. Mazda's concerned about this and has said so in public statements. I'd be interested to know if the last few years have dropped that median age, as I think the Club is aimed at a younger crowd than the earlier cars...and reaching it. The ND is most definitely aimed younger.
So, basically, the size and bulk is comparable to my NA, only with about 40 more hp? (I believe this calculates out to a quarter mile in the high 14's) Handles exceptionally well. Looks great. And it costs about the same or less than an appliance/entry level car?
How dare they?
I think I'd like the new driveline combo in my NA. My be FM can create a business where they do V8s for some people, and ND into NA swaps for those of who aspire to 150 horsepower without forced induction.
Keith Tanner wrote: There's no question the NC is faster when sorted, other than the greater range of really high-end power adders for the NA/NB. My interpretation? The NA/NB feel faster than they are. The NC is faster than it feels. The former behavior is great for having fun on the street, the latter attribute is more effective in competition. The NC also got better with time. If the 2013-15 model had been introduced in 2006, I suspect we'd all have a very different viewpoint of the car. The demographics of NC owners are definitely different than those of the NA/NB were when those cars were new - their average age is higher than any other Mazda. Mazda's concerned about this and has said so in public statements. I'd be interested to know if the last few years have dropped that median age, as I think the Club is aimed at a younger crowd than the earlier cars...and reaching it. The ND is most definitely aimed younger.
You're bang on Keith. I purchased both of my NC's with competition in mind. My 2010 is a better car than my 2006 was and I agree that the Club is aimed at a younger buyer. I was 33 when I purchased my first NC so well under the average age buyer.
I know the ND is going to handle just as well (if not better) than my NC when modified in a similar manner but my concern is that that Mazda didn't leave anything on the table in regards to making more power. A mentioned above no one has been able to extract any power out of the Skyactiv engines. I'll be watching closely in regards to the development of aftermarket parts for the new MX-5.
ZOO wrote: I think I'd like the new driveline combo in my NA. My be FM can create a business where they do V8s for some people, and ND into NA swaps for those of who aspire to 150 horsepower without forced induction.
You can bet that the question will get asked.
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