Non ST-model Fiestas banned from autocross?

FSP_ZX2 wrote:

wbjones wrote:

FSP_ZX2 wrote: The Fiesta has been out for what, 4 or 5 years now. Up until this year Stock Class (HS) ran on "sticky" Hoosier et al tires. This year we now have the new "Street" class that runs on 200TW "street" tires. Wouldn't the rollover risk be diminished under the new rules? This is not a "new" car.

keep in mind that the modern day ST tires are probably stickier than R-Comps were several yrs ago

Hoosier A6's are stickier than any "street" tire--and those have been out for several years.

I totally agree the modern A6 is WAY stickier… but it's not what I was referring to … go back 15 yrs or so, and the modern ST tire is probably quicker (i.e. stickier)

I'm fairly certain that many of the banned cars from the Stock classes because of rollover risk are safe when the owners put 1" lowering springs and Koni yellows or equivalent shocks on them, and bump them to Street Touring. The Fiesta ST should be banned from the Stock class if drivers are two wheeling them also.

drdisque wrote: The regular Fiesta is taller than it is wide by 0.4 inches. The Fiesta St is wider than it is tall by 0.5 inches. Both cars are very close to 1:1.

So if next year Ford decide to fit lower profile rides by 10mm or if all cars came fully loaded so sat 10mm lower they would miraculously be legal again?

wbjones wrote:

FSP_ZX2 wrote:

wbjones wrote:

FSP_ZX2 wrote: The Fiesta has been out for what, 4 or 5 years now. Up until this year Stock Class (HS) ran on "sticky" Hoosier et al tires. This year we now have the new "Street" class that runs on 200TW "street" tires. Wouldn't the rollover risk be diminished under the new rules? This is not a "new" car.

keep in mind that the modern day ST tires are probably stickier than R-Comps were several yrs ago

Hoosier A6's are stickier than any "street" tire--and those have been out for several years.

I totally agree the modern A6 is WAY stickier… but it's not what I was referring to … go back 15 yrs or so, and the modern ST tire is probably quicker (i.e. stickier)

My point is that the Fiesta has been out for several years and raced on Hoosiers (in H-Stock)--where was the problem then? The new rules have less grippy tires...and now it's a problem? Really?

was going to start auto-xing when I got my new dd which is looking to be a Fiesta 1.0 but i guess not now.

MrChaos wrote: was going to start auto-xing when I got my new dd which is looking to be a Fiesta 1.0 but i guess not now.

Where do you live. Many areas have clubs mercifully not associated the SCCA. They tend to runs slightly different rules.

FSP_ZX2 wrote:

wbjones wrote:

FSP_ZX2 wrote:

wbjones wrote:

FSP_ZX2 wrote: The Fiesta has been out for what, 4 or 5 years now. Up until this year Stock Class (HS) ran on "sticky" Hoosier et al tires. This year we now have the new "Street" class that runs on 200TW "street" tires. Wouldn't the rollover risk be diminished under the new rules? This is not a "new" car.

keep in mind that the modern day ST tires are probably stickier than R-Comps were several yrs ago

Hoosier A6's are stickier than any "street" tire--and those have been out for several years.

I totally agree the modern A6 is WAY stickier… but it's not what I was referring to … go back 15 yrs or so, and the modern ST tire is probably quicker (i.e. stickier)

My point is that the Fiesta has been out for several years and raced on Hoosiers (in H-Stock)--where was the problem then? The new rules have *less* grippy tires...and *now* it's a problem? Really?

probably because there's been a re-design ? without doing any research, I'd bet that the Fiesta of past yrs, got certified by the governments roll over standards … those are no longer available (G stopped doing them) … if it has that certificate, it's ok … if not it has to meet the height to width rule …. regardless of whether it was legal in the past …

as I've pointed out … this SCCA rule isn't to stop folk from having fun, it's to help keep sites … owners tend to get very paranoid if accidents happen on their property …regardless of whether they can be held liable or not … and once they get it in their mind that it could somehow come back on them… their response is to just pull their permission and usually no amt. of pleading will change their minds

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Sicofantic Car Club of the Analretentive

Golf clap. Slow nod.

FSP_ZX2 wrote: I totally agree the modern A6 is WAY stickier… but it's not what I was referring to … go back 15 yrs or so, and the modern ST tire is probably quicker (i.e. stickier) My point is that the Fiesta has been out for several years and raced on Hoosiers (in H-Stock)--where was the problem then? The new rules have *less* grippy tires...and *now* it's a problem? Really?

The timing is odd. They probably just missed it. Are lots of people running these things?

No matter how you look at it, its a tippy car with proven rollover tendencies. Why would they not ban it? I'm surprised they aren't excluding the ST also given its 2-wheeling action.

Too much has been made of this myth that 'any car can autocross'. Yes, you can wallow around the course like a Weeble in your 5' tall econobox and then use your magical PAX factor to delude yourself into thinking that it was fast, but please go to Cars and Coffee instead.

We have a great site. If we lose it because you had to come out and put your e36m3-box on its roof (and we will lose it for that) then I know about 150 people who will be glad to show up at your door and take turns beating you to a bloody pulp. Your crumpled car will be the least of your worries.

Some very polite people here in this thread have tried to explain this. I am taking a more direct approach. In spite of the SCCA's efforts to attract newcomers and be inclusive, rollover risk is a real problem and the FiST on two wheels video posted earlier in this thread was a wake-up call. More of these e36m3boxes need the ban hammer, and fast.

For the record, I've seen a few DSP cars pretend to be bicycles over the years and they get the same scorn from me. To their credit, those folks seem to 'get it' and take prompt corrective action so it won't happen again.

Please join us for this Sunday's autocross. Bring a suitable car.

This thread makes my head hurt. The regular Fiesta is not allowed in Street (FKA Stock) trim, that's it. It is not banned from SCCA Autox. Last year there were several close calls with the car that were unexpected and, apparently, lowering and stiffening the suspension makes it behave in an acceptable manner. Every region and Club has the right to exclude any car if they feel it is "unsafe".

ProDarwin wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

ProDarwin wrote:

novaderrik wrote: and if these things are too dangerous for closed course parking lot orange cone avoidance events, then why in the hell are the allowed to be driven by the general public on the roads??

I'm confused. Do you think its an irrational safety measure, or do you think all cars on public roads should not be able to roll from grip alone?

i'm saying that if average Joe not a car guy civilian can drive these things anywhere with full DOT and insurance company blessings, then why can't people drive them in a controlled environment?

.... because the SCCA wants no negative press whatsoever of a rollover.

FTFY

I believe the motives are a bit more sinister, but the results are the same.

The whole thing is asinine. First the vid people are using to support the belief the Fiesta is magically unsafe due to supposition from an in car shot that it may be up on 3 or 2 wheels is of the magically safe and legal ST version, not the bad and dangerous non ST version.

Second as many have pointed out the Fiesta has been out for several years and autocrossed on A6's without going turtle, now we are on undeniably less sticky, therefore less likely to allow a car to reach tipping over, 'street' tires further reducing the risk that has been shown to not exist.

Third the SCCA has already stated that Autocross is obviously a massively dangerous sport. Why else would they require a helmet with a date stamp of less than 10 years old when any person with a double digit IQ can see that a bicycle helmet or even no helmet at all is perfectly appropriate.

Fourth if the SCCA was really interested in safety it would read its own rule book. Page 28 section 2.1. Paragraph 2 “Generally, maximum speeds in the mid 50s to low 60s (mph) are contemplated for Street, Street Touring®, and Street Prepared category vehicles” I’ve seen plenty of course where that is obviously a fallacy.

Fifth, some common sense should be applied (But this is the SCCA). IT’s the same platform as the Mazda 2 and Fiesta ST with very minor differences. Either allow all variant or allow non to compete.

bludroptop wrote: Some very polite people here in this thread have tried to explain this. I am taking a more direct approach. In spite of the SCCA's efforts to attract newcomers and be inclusive, rollover risk is a real problem and the FiST on two wheels video posted earlier in this thread was a wake-up call. More of these e36m3boxes need the ban hammer, and fast.

If I showed up at an event and the rules person told me that they did not allow my car to run because of a rollover concern, I would park it, watch the event for a while, and think about mods or a car change so that I could run someday.

If they told me my car was a "e36m3boxe" and was banned because of it and to go buy an "appropriate car" I'd lodge a formal complaint to the club or chapter and do my best to get that rude a-hole removed from their responsibilities. I've seen trucks run, full-sized station wagons run, economy cars run...you name it. It would be reasonable for someone to show up in a Fiesta. A little explanation is all that would be needed, no need for hating and insults. That turns people away forever.

The solution is simply wider track width and box flares!

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Local club is a non-scca club but they use the scca rules list, including banned cars.

MrChaos wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: Local club is a non-scca club but they use the scca rules list, including banned cars.

So sorry. Fit spacers call it a Street touring car and suck up the stupidity.

EDIT. Actualy through Ford Performance you can buy some springs " Hover over image to zoomclick to enlargeProudly Made in the USAMOUNTUNE SPORT SPRING SET FORD FIESTA ST 2014-2015" If you get them from the dealer and fitted by them there's no warranty issues so do that and your tippy death maching will be miraculously transformed into a super safe grocery getter and safe by any SCCA measure.

Smart safety steward would attempt to find guy who showed up in a non-lowered Non-ST Fiesta a co-drive, preferably in an STF car.

Seems like a lot of arguing and bashing going on here. We should try to be adults in both age and mindset.

If an organization has rules, I can either abide by them or look for another organization. How tough is that?

This sort of thread is why I dislike anything to do with running an autocross club or events. It's amazing how quickly a bunch of adults can turn into tactless infants when they don't like the rules.

Mr_Clutch42 wrote: The Fiesta ST should be banned from the Stock class if drivers are two wheeling them also.

Then the DSP bmw's need banned.....we've seen too many of them on 2 wheels, and WAYYYYY WAYYYYY up on 2 wheels. I actually have no idea how they managed that. My ti could only ever lift the inside front tire. And it wouldn't even do that by much.....damn little chassis car

bludroptop wrote: Bring a suitable car.

No, thank you. I will keep on autocrossing my two ton+ boats.

Or, to quote The Dude: "You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an shiny happy person."

Sky_Render wrote: The solution is simply wider track width and box flares!

The answer is always box flares. Always.

And to the point of bringing inappropriate vehicles to an autocross, I think that is honestly part of the awesome thing about it. I love seeing strange vehicles out there dodging cones. Driving my giant caprice wagon is a riot, and this is coming from a guy who also runs a turbo E30. That being said, if it's a safety issue, it's a safety issue. From my perspective, the video posted earlier is definitely of a car on 2 wheels, and it is an ST. Were I the SCCA, I would probably do the same thing. No one wants to lose their sites to run at, and I doubt anyone wants to see anyone else get hurt, or see autocrossing getting a bad name. In this day and age of the interwebz, it only takes one incident before everyone knows (or thinks they know) everything about it.

There sure are a lot of shiny, happy Richards posting in this thread.

Regardless of the SCCA's (often) deserved insults, some cars are more at risk for a roll-over than others and non-ST Fiestas are in that group. It doesn't matter if the rationale is safety, site retention or image.

The assumption that anyone can simply apply different letters and run a different class in an excluded car is asinine. If, in its' stock form it is excluded, it is excluded. Why is this so hard to figure out, geniuses?

so the answer is mazda2 then? hrmmm