Not Another Fox Body Thread

So we've had this thing for nearly 2 years now. Finally getting around to rehabbing the thing.

Black 92 LX Notch. 5.0/T-5. Something my grandfather and I have been amassing parts for over the past 2 years. We have most of the exterior replacement panels, etc. The car is going to paint over winter. I plan on delivering the shop a nearly stripped car. Running gear will remain in place, however.

That's not what I'm here to discuss, however. Before body panels are hung, I'd like to have Subframe Connectors welded in. There seem to be a million options. I've mainly considered Griggs (looks to be most comprehensive), Maximum (good reputation, seems to lack in complexity vs. Griggs), and Team-Z (seems to be a good middle ground). I know Team-Z is mostly straight-line stuff, but they seem to be a decent compromise. I'm not leaning toward one brand vs. another. They all are reputable brands, but I have absolutely ZERO knowledge in this arena. I just want the car to be solid and stand up to whatever eventual abuse it will be handed.

While things are in paint, I'm going to be doing some rehab on the engine. Was planning on powdercoating some things. Figured it would be a good time for HCI possibly. Most people seem enamored with the GT40/Explorer stuff, E303 and 1.7 roller rockers. Is this the best way to go for simplicity's sake. Or, is there something else I should be looking?

The car will be kept at the house in Western MI. Meaning, it will be seeing cruises, country drives/corner-carving. It might make some trips downstate, some boulevard cruising, maybe an eventual track day once it falls 100% into my hands.

Right now, we're looking to put together a fun street machine that my grandfather can enjoy driving. We're going to do some slight suspension upgrades down the line, but nothing too major. Hoping to keep things in that department kind of simple.

Basically, we're looking for a solid platform for eventual further upgrades.

pics?

Steeda also makes decent SFCs. You really can't go wrong with any of the brands mentioned. The powdercoated versions will resist rust much longer than uncoated. Also make sure you paint over the weld points.

We did some development work with Steeda for SVO's back in the early 90's, good products. Look at their G-Trac brace as well.

Pretty much any of the full length type will work ok from a name brand manufacturer. I've used steeda with good results. I've used upr clones and they sucked, weren't bent right.

With 5.0 being so popular you can probably find a good set of aluminum heads for less than what it will take to rehash those high mile explorer heads and take some weight of the nose.

CJK440 wrote: Pretty much any of the full length type will work ok from a name brand manufacturer. I've used steeda with good results. I've used upr clones and they sucked, weren't bent right. With 5.0 being so popular you can probably find a good set of aluminum heads for less than what it will take to rehash those high mile explorer heads and take some weight of the nose.

If it's something a little less involved, the body shop should be able to do that.

You definitely lost me at aluminium heads, though. I don't really know E36 M3 about Windsors. The only thing I've ever really researched was Boss/Cleveland stuff. All my dad's knowledge is from back in the 70s-80s mixing and matching OE stuff. I see a lot of people talk about AFR, but there are so many runner volume choices I don't even know where to begin on that part.

Probe sells 1.7 ratio roller rockers that don't need guide plates. Those seemed smart. An E303 with those rockers might be quite a bit of motion at the valve. I had honestly figured on re-using the stock cam from my GT-spec motor with those rockers for my street-only convertible.

I had also thought of using Maximum's torque arm in the rear. Depending on what you want to do, you might want to stick with the same brand for both sub-frame connectors as well as suspension so it all goes together. Maybe this is a non-issue but it's worth looking into. If you aren't doing something like this (and your project plan says you aren't) then this is not important.

Make sure your head and header combination fits together. GT40P's from an Explorer require specific exhaust manifolds. Aftermarket usually don't use those manifolds. Just be sure that, whatever head you use, the exhaust manifolds match.

MM makes really nice stuff, that would be the direction I'd lean in. I'd go with their chassis stiffening kit: http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Chassis-Brace-Package-1986-93-Mustang-HT-EFI-P290.aspx

In terms of an HCI combo, think about where you want the power band to be. Most HCI combos pick up some on the top end, but at the expense of the low end torque. Look through some dyno charts that show the whole power band. If you're going to move the power band up in the rev range, you may want to consider steeper rear gears as a complimentary modification. GT40P heads require different headers than plain GT40 heads.

Honestly, I'd map out where you want to go with the car in the future, and then make your upgrades with that plan in mind. For example, it makes no sense getting a nice set of headers if you're going turbo in the future.

If I had a stock Fox, my first few mods would be:

1) Aftermarket shifter (MGW or Steeda Tri-Ax) - the T5 doesn't have internal stops, so a shifter is good insurance against bent shift forks. Used is fine, as these really don't wear. 2) Chassis Stiffening (see above) 3) Brakes - stock brakes are lacking. I'd either upgrade the 4 lug brakes or upgrade to 5 lug. If future track days are a consideration, I'd go 5 lug (which will also require new wheels). The front wheel bearings with the 4 lug setup don't last long at track days. A used 5 lug conversion (with rear discs) would be the way I would go. 4) Exhaust - a catback and aftermarket x/h pipe go a long way towards making these sound better. Everyone has their preference, I'm partial to Magnaflow's catback and their catted x-pipe. Flowmaster's have a drone at 2,000 RPM that can get old after a while.

Craigslist and forums are a great way to get amazing deals on parts. I literally gave away chassis stiffening parts when I got out of Fox bodies.

As the former owner of two '92s (including a black notch like yours), I highly approve of this build. Can't wait to see the progress!

Never noticed that MM kit, thanks for that link.

I know it has some sort of aftermarket exhaust, not entirely sure what brand. Never cared to look, tbh.

Way later on down the line, it'll go Cobra IRS/tubular front and Brembos or similar up front. The car literally wouldn't see track work for YEARS.

It's my plan to have things somewhat "intermediate" as long as it's a shared car. Was considering SN95 spindles w/PBR 2-piston front calipers. Rear disc conversion. Might stay 4-lug for awhile. Not sure where new wheels fall into the budget at this time. There's a lot I need to read up on in regards to offsets on the conversions.

Suspension will get a minor refresh to match. I like the idea of sticking with 1 brand and things working together as a system. Would keep things a lot simpler.

There are so many options, it's easily to come up with a poor combination of parts.

You need to just stop this right now, sell me the whole thing for $400 and I'll come pick it up this weekend. This will save you so much work.

I'd recommend going with the same brand for all the chassis stuff, too. It all tends to play together better that way. Can't go wrong with Maximum, they have a pretty sterling reputation in the Mustang community.

Having owned a 1993 Cobra I would go with a cam similar to the stock Cobra cam. Good street manners with good torque and will still pull past 5K. The E-303 is not the best cam out there. There are some aftermarket ones that will do better. But a GT40 Cobra cammed 5.0L V8 with shorty headers and a 70 MM throttle body and a matching MASS Air meter will make a solid 240-250 HP or more at the wheels. A few more mods(Cam & tune)and you're knocking on 300 HP at the wheels. At that point the heads will be the cork in the bottle.

After driving around in my roommate's 351'd notch.... I wouldn't touch at 5.0L car again, unless it had 4 cams and rhymed with "my floaty." His VERY simple combo makes 360whp/380wtq and is an insanely easy to drive and fun street car. TKO500 trans. 1-2 is worthless on street tires. 3rd gear on just E36 M3s and gets. Dead hooks 2nd with the "street slicks" on it. Ran an 11.69@116mph his first pass after getting it tuned about 2 months ago, his first time down the track in the car in over 3 years. I forget which HCI combo it has(Edelbrock Performer RPM package maybe?), but it's simple and dumb. Running a Quarterhorse by Moates(EFI). Knocks down 20+mpg too. With a little bit of messing with the setup and on a fresh set of slicks, this is an easy 10-second car. The car was basically thrown together and engine tuned. Whole suspension needs dialed in and he admitted that his driving was a bit rusty.

Pic for inspiration:

Also, I'd go with the Team-Z stuff. Went there a couple months back with my roommate and was very impressed with their facility and products. Guy spent a good hour with us just talking about how he got started and the design and fabrication process, and all we were doing was dropping off his brother's GT500 axle to get built.

I'm in with the recommendations above to source a decent set of aluminum heads. You'll knock 45 lbs. off the front, almost all of them flow better than the cast iron GT40's/P's. In any event, with the cast iron heads, you'll need new valve springs to manage almost any cam at rpm over 4500 rpm. Since they're all used, probably need to have guides/seals checked out and usually a small clean-up cut.

Think about where you want your power/torque curves. The E can work decently above 3000 rpm, but is almost always pretty weak below that, where you spend most of your time on the street. I made the mistake of using that cam on my first build. Horrible choice for my version of a fun street car. If you insist, give it all the help you can on the exhaust side and a bump in CR.

I'd look at the CompCams XE line -- the XE258 or 264 will provide a solid gain in mid-range and up top without compromising the bottom end. The ramp rates are much steeper than the E or the HO or Cobra cams - you'll need the correct springs. Have someone that knows what they're doing port the Explorer/Mountaineer lower for you and you'll have an intake combo that flows in the 240-250 cfm range - enough to match the smaller AFR or TrickFlow heads that are available. If you want/need more than that you'll need to step up to the Holley intake or equivalent. But if you end up staying with the cast iron 40's/P's - the Explorer/Mountaineer intake will be all you need.

The stock thin wall block casting is the weak link. There's just not enough beef to prevent cap walk when cylinder pressures and/or revs get big. Build a solid motor that does what it can by 5500-6000 rpm without huge amounts of spray/boostd and it can be lots of fun. Ask for a lot more than that, and cap walk can lead to cracked/broken blocks. All a girdle will do is keep some of the broken bits together.

Test post - for 2 days the summary shows the most recent post by "stroker", but my post appears to be the last one. And no one called "stroker" has even posted in the thread....weird.

Thanks for the Cam recommendations. I'll have to keep an eye out and see what I can find locally. There's a ton of E36 M3 flooding Detroit CL, it's just a matter of knowing what I'm looking at.

When the time comes, I planned on a "proper" build (Dart SHP block, good rotating assembly, etc). For right now, however, it's going to stay pretty mild.

Any recommendation in decent Aluminum heads? How much intake runner is too much on a stock bottom end. Most people seem to just run AFR 205s. Is that akin to everyone putting a 750cfm carb on their stock 289?

I'd just do a Clevor setup if I could find a FI Clevor intake manifold.

I don't know much about Ford engines, but the general rule of cylinder head intake runner volume should be around 160cc-170cc for a 5.0 engine. That is to make sure that you have good torque for the street. You can probably go with 180cc intake runners if you can't find something smaller. 195cc-210cc is best fit for racing 5.0s or for 5.7 and larger V8 engines for street use. But this information is based on Chevy V8s so the details will be different for Ford 5.0 and 351 Cleveland engines. It could be similar to your carb analogy.

The inline heads with 1.90 or 1.94 intake valves will clear the factory eyebrows -- allowing more cam duration before piston to valve clearance becomes an issue. If you move up to anything inline with the 2.02 or 2.05 intake, you can't use much cam without having to change or clearance the piston/valve reliefs.

That's what makes the AFR165 so popular - that and the fact that it flows decently for a relatively small port head. If you got TrickFlow (Twisted Wedge if you like) - the twisted chamber allows for more clearance for that 2.02" intake. You can usually find used the old FRPP X or Y heads - the Y's don't flow any better than the cast iron GT40's/P's - so not much reason to go there. Edelbrock with the 1.90 valve show up from time to time as well. The AFR185's are inline with a 2.02" intake - so you have to watch your cam choice for piston to valve clearance.

You can put together a great combination with a free flowing exhaust, intake and bigger heads -- you're just gonna have to rework the pistons for valve clearance and, my suggestion, work with a custom cam guy to pick the right cam to work with the better flowing/bigger ports. Again - because of the limitations of the stock block, I'd save that combo for your Dart block.

My stock short block works great with a bigger throttle body, bigger maf (24 lb/hr injectors), ported Mountaineer intake (lower), shorty 1 5/8" headers, dual 2.5" exhaust, AFR165 heads, 1.7 roller rockers and a custom cam by Buddy Rawls out of Huntsville, AL. Tons of torque from off idle to 5000 rpm. But all done by 5500 - so I don't have to rev it a ton to get it to go. And it consistently pulls down 17-18 mpg around town and 25-27 mpg on the highway. My thinking with the combo was I wanted a wall of torque, especially down low and mid-range, and was happy to sacrifice a bit of power on the top end for that. Works great in a 2950 lb. Volvo.

You raise up some good points. I GREATLY appreciate the info.

It looks like I need to find some 165s and then get a cam ground from there. I'm going to pull the heads first (this fall) and check how the cylinder walls go before I tear too far into things. A lot of the accessories and bolt-ons are going to get powdercoated.

Looks like I will be picking her up over 13-14 September and bringing everything back. I should have a few pics to post up within the next few days. The ones I had saved seem to have disappeared.

I strongly suggest that you consider a set of Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads rather than the AFRs. AFR used to be good but now they are using low grade hardware and springs which have proven to be less than reliable. If you use the TF Stage 1 cam you won't have valve clearance issues with your OEM forged pistons. Assuming you begin with a solid stock bottom end combining these heads and cam with their Street Heat intake, a set of 24# injectors, a 70mm throttle body and a Pro-M mass airflow meter tuned for the injectors it will run well with the stock A9L ECU and produce an honest 325-340ish HP with great low end torque and still pull hard to 6K.

Jeff

JKleiner wrote: If you use the TF Stage 1 cam you won't have valve clearance issues with your OEM forged pistons.

Depends on cam choice - always measure!

Pics! Notice the AWESOME wheels.

You can even almost, kind of, see me in the third picture.