Of Dinosaurs and ECUs

For clarity sake I am the dinosaur in this posting. I am also looking for an IMCA Sport Compact to race locally-ish as mentioned in this post:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/cars-sale/looking-for-a-sport-compact-dirt-car/155266/page1/

I’ve yet to find a car but . . . I figured I would get me some edjumacaion and you boys seem to be pretty smart.

Being a dinosaur I like cars of a bygone era but the car I’ll end up buying will likely have one o them new-fan-dangled computers to run and monitor a lot of its functions. An IMCA Sport Compact is supposed to have a stock ‘unaltered’ ECU. The IMCA rule:

“No performance chips. All ignition components must be unaltered, OEM and match year, make and model of car used. Vehicle computer (ECU) should be mounted in accessible location for inspection.”

Dino here knows very little of them thar ECU things. I know they can be “tuned” by plugging in various devices and changing settings etc, Kinda pathetic in this era but it is what it is. So . . .

A few things I need to know are:

1. Is there a way to tell for sure if an ECU has been “tuned” or not?
2. Is there a way to tell what parameters have been “tuned” or not?
3. If it has been “tuned” can it be taken back to stock?
4. What else should I know?

FWIW, I don’t want to find out the hard way (disqualification) my ECU was a cheater. Also, if I do want a “tuned” ECU I want to know exactly what is being done. I prefer to know every nut and bolt of the cars I race.

First thing to look at would be the rpm cut off. Generally, most tuners add some rpm in (as long as it's safe to do so.) next would be ignition timing. See how far past advanced it is. (Or retarded based on turbo), this is assuming the ignition timing is controlled by the Ecu. 

There are ways to tell,  but it would require a vast library of stock tunes to compare from and lots of time to read and compare them all. Such a library does not exist.  From my position here that looks like an unenforceable rule.  The benefits are too low to justify the expenses in enforcement.

All they can look for is physical alterations to the circuit board - a socketed chip or a new crystal for the rev counter. That's dinosaur level modification these days, but may be the only option for a car 15 years old. Just look at the ECU and see if there are any items that don't look like they were mass-produced. 

In reply to L5wolvesf :

First get your priorities straight.  With no racing experience even if you had a cheater ECU  you'd lose. 
Second they aren't magic beans.  They don't change a weak 4 cylinder into a screaming V12 with a few key strokes. 
Third if you have a decent running car, offer to trade ECU's with the fast guy.  Chances are more than good he'll do it just to embarrass you. 
 

You'll find more speed in better tires, better  handling,  better brakes, ( yes on a circle track),  more comfortable car.  Than in the ECU in spite of what you've been led to believe 

Pick up a replacement EDU at a local Pick a Part

See if it runs any better or worse

Good Luck

Have Fun

_ said:

First thing to look at would be the rpm cut off. Generally, most tuners add some rpm in (as long as it's safe to do so.) next would be ignition timing. See how far past advanced it is. (Or retarded based on turbo), this is assuming the ignition timing is controlled by the Ecu. 

OK sounds like a good step, how do I see if rpm & timing have been altered?

Knurled. said:

There are ways to tell,  but it would require a vast library of stock tunes to compare from and lots of time to read and compare them all. Such a library does not exist.  From my position here that looks like an unenforceable rule.  The benefits are too low to justify the expenses in enforcement.

Couldn’t someone, a tech guy or me, compare what is in the ECU to what is in a Haynes manual for instance?

Also, the number of eligible cars (compact FWD) and engines (4 cylinder, no VVT, etc.) vs. those that seem to actually compete and are competitive in IMCA is pretty small.

Keith Tanner said:

All they can look for is physical alterations to the circuit board - a socketed chip or a new crystal for the rev counter. That's dinosaur level modification these days, but may be the only option for a car 15 years old. Just look at the ECU and see if there are any items that don't look like they were mass-produced. 

Good to know especially for a dinosaur  

frenchyd said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

First get your priorities straight.  With no racing experience even if you had a cheater ECU  you'd lose. 
Second they aren't magic beans.  They don't change a weak 4 cylinder into a screaming V12 with a few key strokes. 
Third if you have a decent running car, offer to trade ECU's with the fast guy.  Chances are more than good he'll do it just to embarrass you. 
 

You'll find more speed in better tires, better  handling,  better brakes, ( yes on a circle track),  more comfortable car.  Than in the ECU in spite of what you've been led to believe 

Thank you for the input. I don’t expect anyone here to know what racing experience I have or do not have. I wasn’t expecting to be grilled on that so I didn’t address it. So, to briefly clarify . . .

I started autoX in the late 70s after having heard about it while running Mulholland. I was invited by the Guldstrand Racing Association (GRA) to become a team member. I ran autoX for about 5 years but in an car uncompetitive for in its class.

I picked up an SCCA ITB car via GRA and ran Solo 1 (time trials) for several years – did some instruction the last year.

I moved up to regional racing after the first year of Solo 1, did that for several years. I did ok and got invites to the Pacific Coast Road Racing Championships (PCRRC) every year. I also picked up some experience at various tracks Sears Point (PCRRC only), Riverside Int’l, Willow Springs, Las Vegas (the old track), Carlsbad, Holtville. I was also fortunate to be sponsored by with the Mickey Thompson Tire Company and learned a lot on the technical end of things from them.

In the early 90s I ended up with an H-Production car. I did ok for an underpowered car and got invites to the SCCA Road Racing Championships, at Road Atlanta, every year.

I also ran a partial season in a Mustang mini-stock on an 3/8 mile asphalt oval and ran 1 off road race (Class 11). None of this includes any crewing experiences I’ve had.

But I would like to pick up a bit more experience.

That said, I’m not looking to pick up more speed from an ECU. If you read the last paragraph of my original post that indicates the reason for my post.

Having a wee bit of experience in racing I am aware that, better tires, better handling, and better brakes are good place to improve a race car (even on a circle track). But seat time is pretty important too.

RacingComputers said:

Pick up a replacement EDU at a local Pick a Part

 

See if it runs any better or worse

 

Good Luck

 

Have Fun

I like that thought. Thank you

In reply to L5wolvesf : Sorry, I wrongly assumed you didn't have any.  The trouble with Chips is they can be programed. 
Yes with a good car and skill they make a difference. But the swap the ECU idea for a pick-a-part ECU should resolve that. 

Ask if that sort of rule is in place and you should be OK. 
Still there is always the guy who can game the stock chip, knowing for example to run a lower gear or have a little better cam take advantage of a slightly off sensor etc. 

What era of ecu are we talking about?  Things progressed a lot in the 90', going from a chip that needed special hardware to flash to just about flashing over the obd port just 10 years later. The latter being almost impossible to detect a change. 
 

And the performance compromises made over that same decade changed a lot, too. 

L5wolvesf said:

Knurled. said:

There are ways to tell,  but it would require a vast library of stock tunes to compare from and lots of time to read and compare them all. Such a library does not exist.  From my position here that looks like an unenforceable rule.  The benefits are too low to justify the expenses in enforcement.

Couldn’t someone, a tech guy or me, compare what is in the ECU to what is in a Haynes manual for instance?

Also, the number of eligible cars (compact FWD) and engines (4 cylinder, no VVT, etc.) vs. those that seem to actually compete and are competitive in IMCA is pretty small.

You won't necessarily find what a stock tune is in any service manual.  You could compare "computer part numbers" but not the bytes in the PROM.

If it is a GM for instance, chip tuning is something that can be done with freeware and a PROM burner.  If you have a printer/scanner and label paper, you could probably do a good enough job of forging a PROM label too.

Post-OBDII are generally flashable without even opening up the computer, and 'stock tune' is REALLY difficult to pin down because once given that capability, the automakers would put out updated flashes all the time.

What is interesting is by the letter of the rules, this means most cars were not legal for SCCA RallyCross Stock class, as they have been altered beyond how the vehicle left the manufacturer...  I believe that problem has been solved, but it's an indicator of how difficult it is to define a "stock" tune.  Many class rules just give up and allow any tune as long as it uses the factory hardware, just in the name of writing a rule that can actually be enforced.

There was a fairly animated discussion in one of the emissions-related seminars with the ARB, BAR and EPA reps along with the aftermarket big brains about how to tell if a car is running an emission legal tune or something else. Nobody could come up with an answer, and everyone was motivated. 
 

IMSA club racing? Not gonna happen. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I've said this before, but the only thing that a max of the max power calibration and one that will still easily pass all emissions tests are the durability constraints. 

The rules make it sound like what they call Hornet racing up here in the pnw. Bashing up neons, Sentras and golfs on the same dirt ovals the sprint cars run.

If it is hornet class, no one is gonna have your ecu inspected.

Up here hornet racing is as much drivers skill as it is creative cheating. It is comical how everyone overlooks the obvious rule breaking because pointing it out might draw attention to themselves.  I know of a Golf with a 280 degree cam that the drivers says idles poorly because of a bad MAF, a Jetta that sits two inches lower than stock with a ton of negative camber that blames it on worn out suspension components and the list goes on.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to L5wolvesf : Sorry, I wrongly assumed you didn't have any.  The trouble with Chips is they can be programed. 
Yes with a good car and skill they make a difference. But the swap the ECU idea for a pick-a-part ECU should resolve that. 

Ask if that sort of rule is in place and you should be OK. 
Still there is always the guy who can game the stock chip, knowing for example to run a lower gear or have a little better cam take advantage of a slightly off sensor etc. 

No sweat.

L5wolvesf said:

The IMCA rule:

“No performance chips. All ignition components must be unaltered, OEM and match year, make and model of car used. Vehicle computer (ECU) should be mounted in accessible location for inspection.”

RacingComputers said:

Pick up a replacement EDU at a local Pick a Part

See if it runs any better or worse

The pick-a-part ECU option brought a few other questions to mind. I generally avoid electrical parts from parts yards. How reliable is a parts yard ECU? Are they sensitive to being jostled? For instance a car in traffic accident and the battery, or other component, shorts.

Also, do I have to, or is it recommended to, take the cable(s)?

alfadriver said:

What era of ecu are we talking about?  Things progressed a lot in the 90', going from a chip that needed special hardware to flash to just about flashing over the obd port just 10 years later. The latter being almost impossible to detect a change. 
 

And the performance compromises made over that same decade changed a lot, too. 

The cars I would consider, based on rough hp to weight info, in no particular order are:

Dodge Neon 95 - 99

Chev Cavalier 96 – 05 and its derivatives

Mitsu Eclipse 90 – 94, and maybe 00 to 05

Ford Escort GT 91 - 96

Knurled. said:

L5wolvesf said:

Knurled. said:

There are ways to tell,  but it would require a vast library of stock tunes to compare from and lots of time to read and compare them all. Such a library does not exist.  From my position here that looks like an unenforceable rule.  The benefits are too low to justify the expenses in enforcement.

Couldn’t someone, a tech guy or me, compare what is in the ECU to what is in a Haynes manual for instance?

Also, the number of eligible cars (compact FWD) and engines (4 cylinder, no VVT, etc.) vs. those that seem to actually compete and are competitive in IMCA is pretty small.

You won't necessarily find what a stock tune is in any service manual.  You could compare "computer part numbers" but not the bytes in the PROM.

 

If it is a GM for instance, chip tuning is something that can be done with freeware and a PROM burner.  If you have a printer/scanner and label paper, you could probably do a good enough job of forging a PROM label too.

 

Post-OBDII are generally flashable without even opening up the computer, and 'stock tune' is REALLY difficult to pin down because once given that capability, the automakers would put out updated flashes all the time.

 

What is interesting is by the letter of the rules, this means most cars were not legal for SCCA RallyCross Stock class, as they have been altered beyond how the vehicle left the manufacturer...  I believe that problem has been solved, but it's an indicator of how difficult it is to define a "stock" tune.  Many class rules just give up and allow any tune as long as it uses the factory hardware, just in the name of writing a rule that can actually be enforced.

Good, thank you, good to know.

Keith Tanner said:

There was a fairly animated discussion in one of the emissions-related seminars with the ARB, BAR and EPA reps along with the aftermarket big brains about how to tell if a car is running an emission legal tune or something else. Nobody could come up with an answer, and everyone was motivated. 
 

IMSA club racing? Not gonna happen. 

I would tend to agree that enforcement on a lower level of racing is not likely. Which seems to make my initial question moot. 

Jumper K Balls (Trent) said:

The rules make it sound like what they call Hornet racing up here in the pnw. Bashing up neons, Sentras and golfs on the same dirt ovals the sprint cars run.

If it is hornet class, no one is gonna have your ecu inspected.

Up here hornet racing is as much drivers skill as it is creative cheating. It is comical how everyone overlooks the obvious rule breaking because pointing it out might draw attention to themselves.  I know of a Golf with a 280 degree cam that the drivers says idles poorly because of a bad MAF, a Jetta that sits two inches lower than stock with a ton of negative camber that blames it on worn out suspension components and the list goes on.  

I believe hornets and the IMCA Sport Compact classes are the same or very close. IMCA, without protests, has been checking and disqualifying cars. There has been a good deal of chatter on FB about it. That has mostly been from the Midwest. Where I am, AZ, there was one guy who was DQ’d not sure why at this point. FWIW, he wasn’t subtle about whatever advantage he may have had. The 2 races I saw him run he didn’t hold back much if any and won pretty handily.

I would prefer to win on skill and good, but legal, car prep. I have read the rules and know where I could get creative too. But IMCA’s rules seem pretty tight. Once I get my hands on a car I’ll know more.

L5wolvesf said:

alfadriver said:

What era of ecu are we talking about?  Things progressed a lot in the 90', going from a chip that needed special hardware to flash to just about flashing over the obd port just 10 years later. The latter being almost impossible to detect a change. 
 

And the performance compromises made over that same decade changed a lot, too. 

The cars I would consider, based on rough hp to weight info, in no particular order are:

Dodge Neon 95 - 99

Chev Cavalier 96 – 05 and its derivatives

Mitsu Eclipse 90 – 94, and maybe 00 to 05

Ford Escort GT 91 - 96

The Cavalier computers, at least the later ones, can be reprogrammed with HP Tuners.  There would be no external change, and no way to check it electronically short of buying a TIS2Web subscription ($), plugging the car in to a computer ($$) with a J2534 interface box ($$$), and checking the current flash against GM's server - and all the server is going to tell you is that it doesn't have the latest update, which probably 95% of cars on the road won't have.  So all that effort would tell you nothing useful.

As alfadriver points out, there really isn't much to be gained with a computer tune.  The most benefit you could really do is change the rev limiter in case gearing causes you to hit the stock limiter.

In reply to Knurled. :

I wouldn't say nothing.  Not much, but not nothing. For the later cars, virtually all of them run too rich at wot, and there *might* be some more spark left in addition to the rpm limit. 
 

Buth the spark does require better fuel, especially if it is leaned out a little. 
 

is it worth it?  Depends on the original one. I'd wager there would not be much left in something like a neon acr.