Opinions please!! E30 vs 944 vs FC RX7 street/ track

JamesMcD wrote: Are you crazy? Not in the running? Nice FCs are quite inexpensive, the parts are dirt cheap from the club-forum classifieds, they are reliable, especially non-turbos, and they have a huge knowledge base.

My last check-up said I'm still ok.

Sure, the FC and the 944 are both inexpensive to get into, pretty reliable, parts aren't too expensive and there's lots of knowlege/support... relative to most other cars but not the E30.

I won't bother with buy-in cost because that depends on too many factors. If you score the right sucker you can get a very clean E30 with some easy to fix bugs for a grand or less. But there are also idiots asking close to 20 for mint ones thinking they're collectible...

As far as aftermarket, the E30 is supported by a dozen former and current racing outfits (incl ireland, akg, bimmerworld, turner), factory backed tuners (ac, dinan etc), and an entire subculture dedicated to making a plethora of [horrid] bodykits and various other rice garbage for them. FC? (without importing overnight from Japan)

With two huge forums dedicated to them (not BMW or 3 series, e30 - r3v and e30tech) there is a picture-story diy for anything you can ever need to know and there's a documented process for converting to standalone with basemaps galore (NA and various turbo levels), or swapping just about anything - from many other BMW engines, to an RB26 or LSx. For the latter, there's a $100 manual available which holds your hand step by step, with drawings of all custom parts and part numbers of obscure OEM stuff you will require. The M5x swap is so well documented that a kid who's got his Meccano down could do it.

As far as parts availability, a visit to any junkyard will conclude that argument in my favor (or a look around the streets, counting how many FCs and E30s you see).

And about reliability, again I didn't say the others are not reliable. I'm just saying that the E30 is on a different level of robustness. You have to hang around the community to appreciate how badly neglected and broken these cars can be and still not strand you.

I do concede about parts. Most maintenance bits like suspension are about on par.

Of the choices listed, I'd go with a Miata. If the convertible part bothers you, get a hardtop. Knowing what I know now, I'd trade my E30 for a Miata in a heartbeat...

In reply to BigD:

Apparently you've never heard of Racing Beat. Or Mazdatrix, or Corksport, or Ground Control, or SpeedSource, or Black Dragon, or even the factory Mazdaspeed Motorsports program. I can assure you there is no "overnight from Japan" required for FC's. The aftermarket for all RX-7's is very, very robust here in the US.

Javelin wrote: In reply to BigD: Apparently you've never heard of Racing Beat. Or Mazdatrix, or Corksport, or Ground Control, or SpeedSource, or Black Dragon, or even the factory Mazdaspeed Motorsports program. I can assure you there is no "overnight from Japan" required for FC's. The aftermarket for all RX-7's is very, very robust here in the US.

Guys, if someone tells you that compared to Usain Bolt, you run slow, it doesn't mean you need to list your sprinting accomplishments in defense. I never said the others are unreliable, or there is no aftermarket support etc.

I actually agree with Ian about the Miata being a great candidate, if you fit. I wouldn't trade my E30 for it but still, if you want a fun, reliable and affordable daily with great track rat potential, then my list would be : E30, Miata, Civics, 944 - especially if you want to go racing, with the Spec fields for these topping 30 cars.

I'll round out my contribution to this thread with the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc5BbgwpV4Y

Ian F wrote: Of the choices listed, I'd go with a Miata. If the convertible part bothers you, get a hardtop. Knowing what I know now, I'd trade my E30 for a Miata in a heartbeat...

Miata wasn't a choice. Just never been a fan. I get that they handle like karts and all. But I would rather have something with more cabin space. I'm About as wide as I am tall, feel claustrophobic in miatas. Can you elaborate why you would choose the Miata over the e30?

I think the big deciding factor is that (at least in my area) it's FAR easier to get a cheap nice FC than it is to get a cheap nice E30.

E30s worth a E36 M3 without being priced on the far side of ridiculous around here are few and far in-between. I could have an FC parked outside my place in clean and perfectly driveable condition by the end of the day today.

In reply to BigD:

Just trying to show you that there's plenty of aftermarket for the FC in the US, and that stuff did not have to come "overnight from Japan" as you put it.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I think the big deciding factor is that (at least in my area) it's FAR easier to get a cheap nice FC than it is to get a cheap nice E30. E30s worth a E36 M3 without being priced on the far side of ridiculous around here are few and far in-between. I could have an FC parked outside my place in clean and perfectly driveable condition by the end of the day today.

100% agreed! (Which is happening a lot lately as I just bought some RS-3's over my preferred Falken's )

On Memphis Craigslist right now:

• 1 E30, not running

• 1 RX7 in non-running condition

• 2 944s, 1 needing work

Attrition suggests the Porsche.

lol, the magical triangles take maintenence skills, if you learn them, you'll be ok. bmw stuff is usually electrical on older E36 M3, and 944s......well.....theres plent of stuff on those here

Javelin wrote: In reply to BigD: Just trying to show you that there's plenty of aftermarket for the FC in the US, and that stuff did not have to come "overnight from Japan" as you put it.

I think he was trying to point out that the FC "shames" the E30 in regards to aftermarket support, well, just flat isn't true.

There is a VERY healthy aftermarket for E30s.

z31maniac wrote: I think he was trying to point out that the FC "shames" the E30 in regards to aftermarket support, well, just flat isn't true. There is a VERY healthy aftermarket for E30s.

Yep. Please forgive the exaggeration - just for effect.

thunderzy wrote: Miata wasn't a choice. Just never been a fan. I get that they handle like karts and all. But I would rather have something with more cabin space. I'm About as wide as I am tall, feel claustrophobic in miatas. Can you elaborate why you would choose the Miata over the e30?

Well, I'm not a big guy by any stretch (5'10 @ 165 lbs) and I don't exactly find the E30 to be very "roomy" at all.

Simply put: the first time I drove a Miata, my reaction was: "OMG... I need one of these..." My test drive in the E30 was more like, "Eh... hopefully I'll learn to love it and understand what alll the hype is about... after I fix everything" Owning the E30 has become an arranged marraige... Seemed like a good idea at the time and now I'm stuck with it while I look longingly at other women (Miatas)....

My problem is I'm coming from MINI's and when it comes to 'feel' (especially the steering) the E30 is no MINI... It's not even close. I'm still trying to figure out how to get past that. Also, my focus is more towards auto-x rather than track use and I failed to research the fact that a relatively stock E30 is not a very good auto-x car.

Wow, two threads at once close to home for me. I'm going through almost the exact same decision/conversation as this right now. The difference is my $3k price point is about 18-24 months away. But that doesn't make it any less fun. Tom Spangler who's also on here and I waste, sorry spend, many happy hours debating this via e-mail in an effort to keep our productivity up at work (a happy worker is an efficient worker!). Co-incidentally I'm also in SE Michigan same as thunderzy, Beverly Hills for me.

My requirements are. 1. A good, 90% car can be purchased for $3-4k leaving $1k for repairs/updates (springs, shocks, tires, etc)

1. Use is 75% street, 25% track days and autocross (combined 4-8 per year). DD use only on sunny days, stored and worked on in the winter.

2. Rust is a word not to be associated with the car as purchased in any way unless the word zero precedes it.

3. Must be a comfortable tourer, no rock hard springs and shocks. 'Ideal' trip is me and SWMBO cruising up I119 from Harbor springs to Cross village for lunch at Legs in, then next weekend being driven at 9.5 10ths around Gratton.

4. Sports car or smaller GT, no need or want for a true 4 seater, we have DD's for the kids.

5. I do all work myself, so 'shop' rates are irrelevant. A 944 timing belt or clutch holds creates no fear in my heart. That's what winters and heated garages are for.

6. No wild ass mods, over the years it should have reasonable DIY Cheap upgrades available, no boost adders (unless stock forced induction)

7. Doesn't need and I don't want massive performance. Smaller, lighter cars are just as fun and a whole lot cheaper on consumables over the long run. With the exception of my slow ass Miata, the most fun cars I've owned or driven tend to do the 1/4 in the mid 14's to low 15's. Faster than that and it's like a premature ejaculation, all over too soon. Half the fun of a street car is being able to wind it out without becoming jail bait.

The list is as follows.

1. Miata, Duh, Looks great, perfect tourer, great autocrosser, cheap to buy, cheap to work on, cheap to upgrade. I've owned and autocrossed very successfully a Miata before, back when my 1.6L NA were in B stock with the 1.8's. The issue is that as I get older, safety becomes an ever bigger concern. For track use a legal roll bar with 2" clearance is almost impossible. Track day regs are (rightly) getting stricter. Also there is very little crush room between me and another car if I get T boned. Don't give me the maneuverability crap, if someone runs a red light and T bones you, your toast. Just about any 94-97 car with LSD would do. I do have a soft spot for 1.6's but the bigger rear end and LSD just out weighs that.

2. Porsche 944. Aahh, this is the one that pulls my heart strings. Simply the best styled car made until my C30 was launched. A total icon of the 80's. Looks perfect. Great tourer, great track car. As an aside Spec Miata's, Spec E30's and Spec 944's all seem to run broadly similar track times. Track days aren't races so the last 10th doesn't matter. 8V NA cars are kind of slow though. I think I'd really want an 88 with the higher compression, an 89 with the 2.7L or an S. S2's and Turbo's will be beyond my price range for a car in the condition I want. There are some great cars out there that come up with decent mod's from time to time that people have used for autocross. Getting one in good condition within my price window could be hard though, especially as an LSD would be a prerequisite. I'm not interested in buying a car for $3-4 and needing to find an LSD for another $1-2 by the time it's in. That must be already on the car.

3. FC Rx7. Another BTDT car. Mine was an early GTU, when the GTU was the cool car, essentially a turbo body and chassis with the NA engine. Another great car, but falls short of the 944 on styling. The key is finding one in good condition. They are becoming like rocking horse E36 M3 around here in good nick. Also the thirst is a major turn off. The crappy mileage of the magic spinning triangles just isn't acceptable to me.

4. C4 Vette. This is an unusual car in that it's just about the only fun car where I would seek out an auto. The L98 torque monster is just so ideally suited to the auto it's amazing. I've never owned one, but I've done plenty of street miles in them as my FIL has an 85 he bought new. It's very satisfying to drive, I prefer the auto to either the 4+3 or the 6 speed having driven them all. The auto is great for autocross too, but I have a hard time getting my head round an auto on the track to tell the truth.

5. VW Sirocco. The odd ball in this list. I'm just a sucker of the styling, they are great. Plus they are dirt simple, probably only the Miata beats them, and that's just because Miata's have real EFI not the devils own K-Jetronic. Wrong wheel drive, but I do like small, light FWD cars with an LSD. That could be the hard part. Also they make every other car on the list look plentiful in SE Mi, even the Starion.

6. Starion/Conquest. Another 80's icon, anyone want to guess my age here? Down side other than rust and availability is not so great steering and throttle body injection. But if a nice one fell into my lap it could be a contender. Funnily enough two of them live on my street just 5 houses down.

7. E30, an outsider. It hits every button except looks. Whatever I get will stay with me for a long time, the E30 is great, but the styling just doesn't say sports car or tourer to me. Call me shallow, it may be true, but I do want a little style, my kind of style in my toy car :)

I'll put the MR2 here because some one will mention it. Another car I loved when new, but the styling hasn't aged well and I just can't bring myself to own anything built by the evil empire. There are so many other good choices it's easy to scrub from my list.

Funny you should mention the Scirroco... the "odd lot" near me has an orginal-looking 2nd Gen (early 80's) model right now. The paint looks like it's never seen a drop of wax, but it's otherwise rust-free. Even the interior looks clean. Not sure how much they're asking for it yet.

BigD wrote: Guys, if someone tells you that compared to Usain Bolt, you run slow, it doesn't mean you need to list your sprinting accomplishments in defense. I never said the others are unreliable, or there is no aftermarket support etc.

Yes, you did.

"I don't see where the hesitation/confusion lies. The other two are not in the running in any of those parameters."

Now you're backtracking.

I've owned four E30s and six RX-7s. Either one is great for the intended purpose. I found the RX-7s cheaper to maintain, but maybe that's because I started with cleaner RX-7s.

That's probably the right answer, right there. Find the cleanest RX-7 or e30 that you can find in your price range and go to town.

Side note: if you run in 3 or more competitions per year in a Mazda car, you can get factory support through Mazdaspeed in the form of super low prices on genuine Mazda parts. They still support the FC at this time.

Brett_Murphy wrote: Side note: if you run in 3 or more competitions per year in a Mazda car, you can get factory support through Mazdaspeed in the form of super low prices on genuine Mazda parts. They still support the FC at this time.

Bolding could be important in the future. What is the long term support going to be for magic spining triangles? I see Miata's as dead safe bet long term. 944's ditto at a price. E30's no brainer along with C4's. But some of the other cars could become very rare and obscure in the long run.

Mazdaspeed won't give me the discount on my Escort.

Brett_Murphy wrote:

BigD wrote: Guys, if someone tells you that compared to Usain Bolt, you run slow, it doesn't mean you need to list your sprinting accomplishments in defense. I never said the others are unreliable, or there is no aftermarket support etc.

Yes, you did. "I don't see where the hesitation/confusion lies. The other two are not in the running in any of those parameters." Now you're backtracking.

No I'm not. You're just reacting in absolutes (with us or against us). Yes, in my opinion the other two are not in the running, similar to the way you or I would not be in the running with the Jamaican brother I mentioned (and again, just a fun exaggeration, I know the gap between the E30 and other two isn't that big). That doesn't say that that the others are awful at those points or that we can't run - unless that's what you want to read.

Brett_Murphy wrote: I've owned four E30s and six RX-7s. Either one is great for the intended purpose. I found the RX-7s cheaper to maintain, but maybe that's because I started with cleaner RX-7s. That's probably the right answer, right there. Find the cleanest RX-7 or e30 that you can find in your price range and go to town.

I can agree with that. My experience with RX7s is strictly anecdotal, through friends, and mostly FDs. The only close friend with an FC had an LS motor in his for drag racing. The cars I did see were generally in better shape but that could also just mean that the few of them that are left alive were better cared for. At least in the North East, I'm convinced there is no longer such a thing as a rust-free E30. I take the adverb qualifying the level of rust-freeness in the advert to indicate just how rusty it is.

eg: fairly rust-free - junk heap which can be flintstoned very rust-free - typical rustbucket with holes in the rocker panels, license plate lights etc totally rust-free - looks good from 30 feet but underbody all rusted and many areas held together with tar, probably has a fuel leak

That said, I've yet to see one without a catastrophic failure that I couldn't get me home with at most some minor attention. It might clunk, shake, stall, have no idle, half the electrics not working, massive misfire, leaking everything but it'll keep working. The problem is that I've found as a result, people let them get neglected far further than other cars, and unless you buy one that's already sorted, it will take a lot of work before it becomes perfect again.

Being serious:

Despite my tongue-in-cheek post earlier, I for one am a fan of spinning triangles, to the point where I'm going to have an FC for my next project. Don't get me wrong; a 944 in something other than Guard's Red is serious boner material, and even in Guard's Red I'd put up with one.

However, when put against a rotary, I'm not seeing the P car bring anything to the table. The timing belt, clutch, etc. may seem like small potatoes, but the anecdote that kills me on the 944's is the rod bearings being a weak spot and liable to wipe out with the slightest dip in oil flow. This is apparently greatly exacerbated by track duty and requires all sorts of sump trickery to avoid.

A 13b has neither a timing belt nor rod bearings, and will probably be much happier at 9/10ths for hours on end. As for oiling, Mazda automotive rotaries are used in aircraft without oil system modification. If you can pull 1G straight up in the air, then you need to stop racing and go back to making Walker Texas Ranger, Chuck Norris.

That said, for tinker-toy swapability the E30 is king. A platform VWs are easy to swap around, and they don't hold a candle to E30s. An M52 with M50 intake and M3 cams would tear all brands of ass in a 2700 pound car. But, as a swap-crazy guy myself, I have to ask: do you want to fish on the track or cut bait in the garage?

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Wow, two threads at once close to home for me. I'm going through almost the exact same decision/conversation as this right now. The difference is my $3k price point is about 18-24 months away. But that doesn't make it any less fun. Tom Spangler who's also on here and I waste, sorry spend, many happy hours debating this via e-mail in an effort to keep our productivity up at work (a happy worker is an efficient worker!). Co-incidentally I'm also in SE Michigan same as thunderzy, Beverly Hills for me. My requirements are. 1. A good, 90% car can be purchased for $3-4k leaving $1k for repairs/updates (springs, shocks, tires, etc) 2. Use is 75% street, 25% track days and autocross (combined 4-8 per year). DD use only on sunny days, stored and worked on in the winter. 3. Rust is a word not to be associated with the car as purchased in any way unless the word zero precedes it. 4. Must be a comfortable tourer, no rock hard springs and shocks. 'Ideal' trip is me and SWMBO cruising up I119 from Harbor springs to Cross village for lunch at Legs in, then next weekend being driven at 9.5 10ths around Gratton. 5. Sports car or smaller GT, no need or want for a true 4 seater, we have DD's for the kids. 6. I do all work myself, so 'shop' rates are irrelevant. A 944 timing belt or clutch holds creates no fear in my heart. That's what winters and heated garages are for. 7. No wild ass mods, over the years it should have reasonable DIY Cheap upgrades available, no boost adders (unless stock forced induction) 8. Doesn't need and I don't want massive performance. Smaller, lighter cars are just as fun and a whole lot cheaper on consumables over the long run. With the exception of my slow ass Miata, the most fun cars I've owned or driven tend to do the 1/4 in the mid 14's to low 15's. Faster than that and it's like a premature ejaculation, all over too soon. Half the fun of a street car is being able to wind it out without becoming jail bait. The list is as follows. 1. Miata, Duh, Looks great, perfect tourer, great autocrosser, cheap to buy, cheap to work on, cheap to upgrade. I've owned and autocrossed very successfully a Miata before, back when my 1.6L NA were in B stock with the 1.8's. The issue is that as I get older, safety becomes an ever bigger concern. For track use a legal roll bar with 2" clearance is almost impossible. Track day regs are (rightly) getting stricter. Also there is very little crush room between me and another car if I get T boned. Don't give me the maneuverability crap, if someone runs a red light and T bones you, your toast. Just about any 94-97 car with LSD would do. I do have a soft spot for 1.6's but the bigger rear end and LSD just out weighs that. 2. Porsche 944. Aahh, this is the one that pulls my heart strings. Simply the best styled car made until my C30 was launched. A total icon of the 80's. Looks perfect. Great tourer, great track car. As an aside Spec Miata's, Spec E30's and Spec 944's all seem to run broadly similar track times. Track days aren't races so the last 10th doesn't matter. 8V NA cars are kind of slow though. I think I'd really want an 88 with the higher compression, an 89 with the 2.7L or an S. S2's and Turbo's will be beyond my price range for a car in the condition I want. There are some great cars out there that come up with decent mod's from time to time that people have used for autocross. Getting one in good condition within my price window could be hard though, especially as an LSD would be a prerequisite. I'm not interested in buying a car for $3-4 and needing to find an LSD for another $1-2 by the time it's in. That must be already on the car. 3. FC Rx7. Another BTDT car. Mine was an early GTU, when the GTU was the cool car, essentially a turbo body and chassis with the NA engine. Another great car, but falls short of the 944 on styling. The key is finding one in good condition. They are becoming like rocking horse E36 M3 around here in good nick. Also the thirst is a major turn off. The crappy mileage of the magic spinning triangles just isn't acceptable to me. 4. C4 Vette. This is an unusual car in that it's just about the only fun car where I would seek out an auto. The L98 torque monster is just so ideally suited to the auto it's amazing. I've never owned one, but I've done plenty of street miles in them as my FIL has an 85 he bought new. It's very satisfying to drive, I prefer the auto to either the 4+3 or the 6 speed having driven them all. The auto is great for autocross too, but I have a hard time getting my head round an auto on the track to tell the truth. 5. VW Sirocco. The odd ball in this list. I'm just a sucker of the styling, they are great. Plus they are dirt simple, probably only the Miata beats them, and that's just because Miata's have real EFI not the devils own K-Jetronic. Wrong wheel drive, but I do like small, light FWD cars with an LSD. That could be the hard part. Also they make every other car on the list look plentiful in SE Mi, even the Starion. 6. Starion/Conquest. Another 80's icon, anyone want to guess my age here? Down side other than rust and availability is not so great steering and throttle body injection. But if a nice one fell into my lap it could be a contender. Funnily enough two of them live on my street just 5 houses down. 7. E30, an outsider. It hits every button except looks. Whatever I get will stay with me for a long time, the E30 is great, but the styling just doesn't say sports car or tourer to me. Call me shallow, it may be true, but I do want a little style, my kind of style in my toy car :) I'll put the MR2 here because some one will mention it. Another car I loved when new, but the styling hasn't aged well and I just can't bring myself to own anything built by the evil empire. There are so many other good choices it's easy to scrub from my list.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!

We're on the same track. Same budget, and project objective.

I have considered all those cars, with the exception of the scirroco. I'm surprised you didn't mention the fox body mustang and 3rd & 4th gen F-body, being a Motor City guy and all.

I finally narrowed it down to the 944, E30, AND FC. Trying to choose between the 3 is much harder than anticipated. It seems as though we can knock the 944 out of contention. As it seems parts for these cars carry a premium compared to the parts of the other models. Working on them seems to be more difficult than the others as well. Also based on the lack of support it is getting in this thread. It narrows the search down to the E30 and FC. AWESOME!!! Now I have to find a way to get a ride in both. Anyone in the Detroit area willing?

Adrian_Thompson, I would love to get into those email conversations!! My email address is thunderzarch@gmail.com.

All great choices in my opinion. Probably can't go wrong what ever way you go. I looked at all of those and went with an FC. One of the main reasons is there always seems to be at least one at the local bone yard, sometimes more. Occasional E30s come in and I have never seen a 944 there in four years. Happy shopping!

I love the FC and all, but I'm curious why the S13 240SX has been entirely left out of the running?

Looked at a 944 at lunch. Asking price was 1500. Bad clutch, not a straight panel on it.