OSHW alternatives for Megasquirt

Are there any open source hardware alternatives for Megasquirt? I mean, I know someone that managed to get his car to idle with an Arduino, but that's not what I'm looking for at all. For as hackable as MS seems to be, I would have expected it to be open source, but it's not.

I acknowledge that MS is pretty much the best budget system out there, but it would be nice if it were truly open source, which would allow for even greater innovation than we've seen with MS.

What innovative idea are you unable to execute due to the limitations are you facing with the Megasquirt?

While MS isn't "open source" it is openly readable, can be modified as required, and documentation out the wazoo is available for it as a huge group of people modify and improve it with shared documentation and a wide variety of goals in mind. For all intents and purposes, as far as I am considered that's as close to open source as it gets.

Bryce

PS: http://freeems.org/

I'm keeping an eye on the development of Free EMS. It might be more along the lines of what you're looking for.

FreeEms is pretty much it.

There's also a guy on miataturbo that seems to have his car driving on an Arduino board. Wrote his own software.

Fred is very accessible if you have questions concerning Free Ems. Cool guy.

I'm going to check out Free EMS for sure.

One reason I prefer OSHW is that I am able to make a change to the product, produce that product, crediting the original creator of the product, and sell the new product. People could also etch a PCB and populate it at home if they so choose.

Some people might choose to use a more powerful CPU, add features, remove features to reduce BOM cost, change the board layout, or design it to do something really out there like control 2 engines simultaneously.

Here is the license for Megasquirt. It's rather prohibitive, and completely disallows you to spin your own boards or make changes to the product then spin your own boards. It also requires that the MS firmware is only installed on MS devices, and MS devices must have MS firmware installed.

I believe the source code is available for MS extra, how much more open do you want?

The source code may be available, but it's only able to be installed on MS hardware that's made under contract by other vendors, such as DIYAutoTune.

I'd love for MadScientistMatt to make a post here with his personal views on the subject, provided that he's able to.

What are you looking to do that ms isn't capable of? Or could be if you ask a developer nicely?

Right now, nothing. Megasquirt can do everything I need it to do, but there are plenty of features that I don't need, thus could reduce the BOM cost by leaving their pads unpopulated. This would be especially helpful for plug and play systems for cars with little interest. For example, 86 and 87 Accords have different ECU pinouts than the 88 and 89 models. A board can be spun, parts can be ordered, and then assembled on an as-needed basis. There's no need for more than 4 injector drivers, nor is there a need for the compatibility with 10,000 different ignition systems.

There is interest for PNP MS units for those cars, but there are fewer than 10 people that want them, which is DIY's minimum order for a PNP unit. Add in the 2 ECU connectors, and now you need 20 people to have them made, 10 for each submodel. If I could produce the units myself, I'd save the community money, and be able to cheaply include the system with say, a turbo kit.

BTW, I still want a Megasquirt BECAUSE it's an all in one setup that can do most things quite well.

Derick Freese wrote: Right now, nothing. Megasquirt can do everything I need it to do, but there are plenty of features that I don't need, thus could reduce the BOM cost by leaving their pads unpopulated.

Sounds like the real answer. Talk to DIYAutotune about creating X units to your specs. It's not so hard to depopulate circuits for a run if there's a bit of volume to justify it. Seems like a small savings, but if that's what you want I bet it's easy to get. If you had 20 handfuls of money put towards a check with their name on it, you and 19 of your friends would probably get exactly what you wanted for less money than you'll spend developing an open source kit that is anywhere nearly as capable.

I've done MS stuff for years. DIY and open source-ish was the name of the game early on. It's way, way better now than it was then with trusted partners, open community involvement from a very diverse background, and hacked versions aplenty.

If you want truly open source, the link above is it as far as I know. Personally, I don't find the MS setup to restrict me, but everybody has a different perspective.

Bryce

Unless you are talking some pretty big volumes, I really can't see it being worth it. Also, the MS2 and MS3 "modules" are made to do exactly what you are talking about. The contain the processor and appropriate licensing, and you can customize the "world facing" hardware from there. For your Accord example just making PnP harnesses and using standard MS hardware tailored for that use would be a much more effective option as the ECU connectors are available (from what I remember at least).

For your own personal use, you can definitely customize the MS1/2 code bases, the source is there. I remember writing an early 60-2 decoder for MS1/extra before a good one was implemented. Possible, but again, I don't see the gain with the developers being very receptive to additions. For most things the code is already there and working, there's no reason to get rid of it, just don't use it, come up with base configurations, etc for those you wish to support.

It's almost like I do this sort of thing and have thought this through a bit...

Why would you want to gear up plug and play systems for such a low volume market? It'd be far simpler to just run a new engine control harness. Plug and play is for consumers, and I have a feeling that such a strange niche either is populated by people who could easily tackle the not-terribly-difficult task, or people who would whine "Oh it's THAT MUCH! I wanted something for $100, and somebody to tune it for me."

And, last I checked, the BOM for MS1 is still out there. You can build the system as you see fit. Sure, MS3 is complex, but IMO MS3 is so expensive that it's not even an option, I can get a FAST XFI for about the same price.

Derick Freese wrote: People could also etch a PCB and populate it at home if they so choose. Some people might choose to use a more powerful CPU, add features, remove features to reduce BOM cost, change the board layout, or design it to do something really out there like control 2 engines simultaneously.

It seems like the folks that would actually be capable of doing this, would just buy an MS and modify it to their needs anyway. No need buy stuff at an additional markup from someone else.

Not to mention changing the processor changes timings in the software and on and on and on.

MS has minimums for a reason, because that's what it takes to make money.

I agree OSHW would be better, but MS is the most open "mature" option right now. FreeEMS looks promising.

I think as long as you use a B&G processor for the license you are good to go.

Also the MicroSquirt module was built with P&P in mind, plug that into an adapter board to support any extra hardware and make the appropriate connections to an OEM connector.

Watch out for the plug & play customers = most are support nightmares

I am way out of the loop, but didn't MS start as an open source system to build yourself? then people started making kits and full systems. I assumed you could still buy the PCB and build it, that being the case can't you just leave the components off for the drivers you don't need?

Please excuse my ignorance if I'm 100% wrong.

You're not 100% wrong, just slightly wrong. The specifications are freely available but it's not "open source" in the way the FSF means it - you can't produce and sell your own boards from the spec, and if you run the MS firmware on a unit that doesn't have a B&G CPU, that's a violation of the firmware's license.

There's one thing I've wanted the dev's havent been receptive on, thats transient/predictive/tip in knock retard. Like berkeleying A I want to just pull 2 degrees of timing when you stomp the gas within a certain rpm range so that it doesnt knock for a split second during changing airflow conditions. Like E36 M3, this is a common OEM ecu function.

If you have the capabilities to do what you want here though I think you've got other car electronics you could get into. A MS like thing for ABS/traction/stability control to compete with something that combines the Bosch abs setup and racelogic traction control and costs around $800-1200 with the abs pump would be kick ass. Or something with a larger market would be a "mega wire" which would be like the MS type thing for a programmable power management block in the $500 price range.

Sure, I don't mind commenting on MegaSquirt. The other efforts, I don't have any experience with, but it appears none have gotten to the point where they're documented for a typical end user.

Derick Freese wrote: The source code may be available, but it's only able to be installed on MS hardware that's made under contract by other vendors, such as DIYAutoTune.

More or less - you need an official B&G CPU and main board for the regular MegaSquirt line, or something made under license like the MS3-Pro. It has been this way from the get-go, although policies have become more written and official as the project grew and more people needed official guidelines. There has also been a bit more work at actively cracking down on unauthorized copies.

The MicroSquirt Module is one example of something that is a CPU, main board, and licensing in one package, and they can be ordered in bulk to get the costs down.

There are a couple reasons for the policy. It's not just to ensure Bowling & Grippo get paid - although they are now currently working on MegaSquirt and related projects full time. The other two reasons for this are quality control (we had a couple unauthorized MegaSquirt clones with severe issues, such as Fuel Injection Pro's boards that consistently burned the traces on the injector outputs because they were too thin and couldn't carry the current required) and support (yes, we've seen people ask for support on how to add mods to homemade boards when nobody has any idea how the thing is set up). Having a standardized product lets people who do support (like myself) get familiar with the hardware's quirks and behavior that would be very difficult if there were several dozen variations.

bentwrench wrote: Also the MicroSquirt module was built with P&P in mind, plug that into an adapter board to support any extra hardware and make the appropriate connections to an OEM connector.

That is exactly where I'd head for this. If you want to make your own run of cheap plug and play systems for a niche application, get a MicroSquirt Module, etch a couple adapter boards yourself or get them made from a short run PCB supplier (they're a lot of them out there, and the cost is cheaper than you might think), and solder on some connectors salvaged from junkyard ECUs. The DIYAutoTune.com MSPNPs add a third board with more supporting circuits, but this is not strictly necessary; it's more something we did to give it features above and beyond what a bare-bones plug and play system would cost and differentiate us from a couple other outfits that had adapted the MicroSquirt Module to plug and play systems.

Watch out for the plug & play customers = most are support nightmares

I wouldn't necessarily say they are support nightmares as much as that they have higher expectations (as they very well ought to!). They'll expect good install documentation, a map that can run a stock example right out of the box (and possibly maps for their modified engines too), and support to be ready if they need it.

Between the work to design an MSPNP and the testing, dyno tuning, and documentation it takes to get to the point we can meet the support expectations of plug and play customers - THAT is why we have a 10 unit minimum. If we set it lower, we would have to charge considerably more to cover the R&D expenses of putting something together in order to make any money on it, and I can't imagine people willing to pay something with a four figure price tag for a niche market ECU unless it's for a very rare and expensive car.