P71's

belteshazzar wrote: Javelin, if you want to add this to your database of knowledge: 98-02 P71 brakes are BIGGER than +03. Thanks.

I loved the brakes on my 01! I had no issue with them at all, especially not after the Performance Friction CarbonMetallic Pads and drilled/slotted/zinced rotors were swapped on.

I'm curious as to the sizes though. I know you can run 16's on a 98-02 (since that's what they had stock), but the 03+'s stepped up to 17's. The 03+ P71 brakes are also supposed to be identical to the 05+ Mustang GT (to the point where somebody bolted on the new Track Pack Brembos).

belteshazzar wrote:

Javelin wrote: Of course Ford used an even lousier version. They love saddling everything but the Mustang and F-150 with a lower power version.

aside from the well documented delay of introducing the P.I. version 4.6 in the panthers, the part numbers are the same between the mustang f-150 and panthers in regards to the engines and their parts.

Not the intake manifold elbow, throttle body, air filter/intake pipe, exhaust manifolds, or ECM. Internally identical I don't doubt, but the ancillaries are definitely different.

So did Ford never correct this problem? There isn't another head design that can be swapped?

98-02 can fit a 15" rim on the rear but no less than 16" on the front.

drilled/slotted rotors and hawk hps pads all around on mine, it stops great for what it is.

bravenrace wrote: So did Ford never correct this problem? There isn't another head design that can be swapped?

Never did the useless bums. The final few 4.6 2V's being churned out this year still have it. Idiots.

The 4V heads swap on with no issues though. The thing you have to watch out for is their "modular" (yeah right) architecture means that there's 2 different engine designs, Romeo and Windsor. They have different "main bearings, heads (cam caps: individual caps per cam journal vs. interconnected cam "cages"), camshaft gears (press-on vs. bolt-on), valve covers (11 bolts vs. 13 bolts), crankshaft (6 bolts vs. 8 bolts), and cross bolt fasteners for main bearing caps" according to Wiki, but that's all on the 2V's. I think the 4V heads all came out the same.

Conventional wisdom says the later (99+) 4V heads are better, but the 99 Cobra was a catastrophe and the 96-98 Cobra's were considered under-rated. A lot of drag racers prefer the earlier 4V heads (shared with the Lincoln MKVIII btw). The 4V heads do not have the plug issue.

Javelin wrote:

belteshazzar wrote: Javelin, if you want to add this to your database of knowledge: 98-02 P71 brakes are BIGGER than +03. Thanks.

I loved the brakes on my 01! I had no issue with them at all, especially not after the Performance Friction CarbonMetallic Pads and drilled/slotted/zinced rotors were swapped on. I'm curious as to the sizes though. I know you can run 16's on a 98-02 (since that's what they had stock), but the 03+'s stepped up to 17's. The 03+ P71 brakes are also supposed to be identical to the 05+ Mustang GT (to the point where somebody bolted on the new Track Pack Brembos).

98-02 panthers had nearly 12.5" brakes, +03 and up are just a hair over 12".

bravenrace wrote: So did Ford never correct this problem? There isn't another head design that can be swapped?

I work at a napa store. we sell the repair kit for $70 retail.

What about the rears? I know my 01 had solid discs and the calipers were mounted opposite (ie - one was in front of the axle, one was behind). Did the 03+'s get larger and/or ventilated and/or proper calipers on the back?

One thing to watch out for on the 98-02's is there are different front calipers. The regular Panther's have a smaller piston than the P71, and the P71 could have steel or phenolic pistons, which had different pad part #'s (though I'm told it iwas only the pistons inner diameter that changed, so the pads might work visa-versa). Mine had steel.

BTW - I still have the original (and good) rotors and pads from my car, the air filter/intake tube setup, and the plastic drunkard back seat. Along with a spare dash face.

belteshazzar wrote:

bravenrace wrote: So did Ford never correct this problem? There isn't another head design that can be swapped?

I work at a napa store. we sell the repair kit for $70 retail.

I bought that kit and returned it, it's crap. They give you a long-reach plug and want you to basically screw in an adapter/extension thing. Then you end up with a different plug on that head. Looked like it cost about 10 cents to manufacture in China. I got mine from Dorman through Rock Auto for around $35 or so last year. I dunno if there's any different ones, but I wasn't impressed.

BTW the actual Ford kit and tool looks really impressive, and is probably what the shop used. Find of those and you are golden. I didn't want to risk it.

I've been looking primarily at '03's. That's more by chance than intent, and I have so far only looked at ads, not cars.
All this talk about differences in years has me a little fuzzy on it. Is '03 a good year to look at? How about miles - Should I rule out cars over a certain amount of miles?

Javelin wrote:

ultraclyde wrote: They had a factory Watts Link? Huh, never knew they did that on anything....

SA/FB RX-7 had a factory Watt's link, too. Now you know!

condition is more important than miles, or even year, imo

but yes 2003+ had an updated suspension and rack and pinion steering.

a good run down of the changes here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Crown_Victoria_Police_Interceptor

If you're willing to put in some leg work for the purchase and elbow grease post-purchase, you can buy from the "source," so to speak. The state of Ohio surplus vehicles go to auction every month or two and the next auction is coming up August 27th. You can check the cars out a day or two ahead of time, start them and pull them back and forth in the space (or at least you used to be able to), and then write down the ones you're interested in for the day of the auction.

They have the previous auction's final prices, along with a single picture of each vehicle, up here:

http://dasapps.ohio.gov/Surplus/previousauction.asp

Looks like a 2007 goes for around $2000, more or less depending on what's wrong with it. They're pretty honest about the descriptions, but you are buying them completely as-is so don't go hog wild on one without faults listed assuming it's perfect!!

These are straight from being decommissioned police vehicles, so they have the vinyl back seat and lots of holes in the dash and such from their equipment. Rubber plugs will be stuck in any through-body holes like from the roof mount antenna.

Info on the next auction:

http://www.dasapps.ohio.gov/Surplus/nextauction.asp

It's fun to go to, sometimes they have small bikes from the Motorcycle Ohio training classes. I've bought a couple vehicles there over the years and it's been worthwhile. A friend bought a Chevy 3/4 ton truck that ended up having a cracked frame, though, and it was junked. Overpaid on that one, but the prior purchase of a 1/2 ton Dodge was a $300 buy that lasted him years.

Oh, and PS: Buy a highway patrol or state of ohio police car, not a park services car. The park services are more poorly funded and really keep the cars in use for way longer than the police, so they're pretty ragged out by the end. A cursory glance at the car should tell you that, but keep an eye out for the wide green strip down the sides that identifies it as a park services car.

belteshazzar wrote: condition is more important than miles, or even year, imo

Absolutely, positively, 1000% agreed!

one of my friends just bought a CLEAN '05 with no holes & 90k for $3,000.

belteshazzar wrote: one of my friends just bought a CLEAN '05 with no holes & 90k for $3,000.

From what I've seen so far, that seems like a good deal.

Javelin wrote: the 99 Cobra was a catastrophe and the 96-98 Cobra's were considered under-rated. A lot of drag racers prefer the earlier 4V heads

B-port heads (98 and earlier) flow really well which makes them awesome top-end motors, but they're pretty doggy down low. The C-port head ('99+) doesn't have the sheer flow of the b-port, but it makes for a much better street motor.

Javelin wrote:

belteshazzar wrote:

bravenrace wrote: So did Ford never correct this problem? There isn't another head design that can be swapped?

I work at a napa store. we sell the repair kit for $70 retail.

I bought that kit and returned it, it's crap. They give you a long-reach plug and want you to basically screw in an adapter/extension thing. Then you end up with a different plug on that head. Looked like it cost about 10 cents to manufacture in China. I got mine from Dorman through Rock Auto for around $35 or so last year. I dunno if there's any different ones, but I wasn't impressed. BTW the actual Ford kit and tool looks really impressive, and is probably what the shop used. Find of those and you are golden. I didn't want to risk it.

The NAPA one is a reboxed Dorman product.

We also offer a Helicoil kit for $45 that some of our shops prefer.

bravenrace wrote:

belteshazzar wrote: one of my friends just bought a CLEAN '05 with no holes & 90k for $3,000.

From what I've seen so far, that seems like a good deal.

Agreed, I'd jump on that! Mine had holes.

ReverendDexter wrote:

Javelin wrote: the 99 Cobra was a catastrophe and the 96-98 Cobra's were considered under-rated. A lot of drag racers prefer the earlier 4V heads

B-port heads (98 and earlier) flow really well which makes them awesome top-end motors, but they're pretty doggy down low. The C-port head ('99+) doesn't have the sheer flow of the b-port, but it makes for a much better street motor.

Yeah, the earlier ones LOOOVED boost. Put a Kenne Bell supercharger on them with a set of 4.10 gears and watch out!! Vortech's worked out pretty well too.

I didnt see anyone mention it, maybe because it's not a PROBLEM, but these cars have what i would call a great transmission. So add that as a major point in their favor, because there is no joy in buying a $2000 car if it needs a $2000 transmission rebuild anytime soon..

Question for Javelin - with your prior P71 - was changing to the larger exhaust and adding the tune worth the cost?

Just to plop down my $.02; The '05-up have 31-spline axles, if that has any bearing on the purchase whatsoever. :)

My '09 Biz Marquis spit out a spark plug a few months ago. I bought the car with "a constant gas smell" as mentioned in the previous owner's ad, then proceeded to look at all of the wrong potential culprits for said gas smell while driving to and from work, being slowly fumigated. It turns out that a spark plug was slowly backing out of the head, letting combustion gasses leak past it until it finally popped out, taking half of the last thread with it.