Performance stats vs Fun to drive

nderwater wrote: I've driven a Corvette and a number of late model Porsches and //M Cars on the race track, but I have never tried to commute in one. On the other hand, I have daily-driven a number of Miatas and E30s over the years. What I'd really like next is not a 'slow car fast' but a true high-performance car that still fun and engaging when driven at street speeds. What cars best fit that bill?

You really should go drive one.

The higher performance car, the less it works in even very extended normal driving. A car that can do above 150mph is still loafing at 100. Outside of the legalities of driving 100 on normal roads- the rest of the driving public just became random moving cones that can really hurt.

I, too, have had the chance to drive very high performance cars on the street. Other than being able to brag to your friends about it, they are incredibly boring. I really don't know how one can have a truly engaging car at street speeds and it being a very high performing car.

So you don't want a Miata- which is fine. What think you need is something along the lines of an 80's V6 GT car, like an Alfa GTV6 or a 300Z of that era. Really good performance, much more feel than today's cars, etc. If you can replicate that with a more modern car, you are all set.

Anymore, the only way I would get a super high performance car for nominal driving is if it was the only car I could have, and I did a lot of track work.

And even then, my time in a basic Alfa GTV on the track has spoiled me. Learned that fun is fun, and the time it takes to do a lap on a track is just a number. I always enjoyed autocrossing my Alfa over my Miata, since it was more difficult to do.

Anyway- for most of the cars you like, the prices are pretty stable, so other than taxes and registration fees, you wont lose much money getting one.

One more thing- get the car you like. It's your car. You are beyond logic, numbers, and reason- it's about emotion. Why get a 911 if you've always dreamed of a Vette? Or something like that.

Keith Tanner wrote: The trick is finding a car that's not compromised by its performance.

This is my feeling. I'm sorry, but I've gotten over the "driving a slow car fast is more fun" thing. No, it's not. Not to me. I'm not saying it's not fun at all, because it is. The NA/NB/NC Miata are great examples. None of them are fast, but having just bought my 6th Miata, I'll agree they're an absolute hoot to drive. One of the most...if not THE most...fun overall cars I've ever owned. Yes, the NC is faster than it feels, but it's still not a fast car.

As much as I love the Miata, given a choice I'd take more power all day, every day. However, the key to making it fun is not having to make all kinds of compromises to get that performance. The FFR Cobra I once had is a great example. Not many people use it as a DD...though I knew a few people when I was in the Cobra club who had short commutes and used it nearly daily (except on rainy days). My car was roughly 375-400hp and weighed 2200lbs. It had gobs and gobs of performance...but honestly anything more than a 30 minute ride in the car started to get punishing. I had the opportunity to go to BMWs plant in South Carolina in late 2015 and do their driving experience. They turned you loose (no instructor in the car) on their roughly 1 mile road course. I got to absolutely hammer the 2016 M4, M5, Z4, X5M on the track. Those were all cars that blew my mind performance wise, but I could have seen myself comfortably commuting day to day in them. Perfect balance. Then the instructor took the M5 out with three of us as passengers and drifted around the entire track. It was really cool, but the M5 was such a comfy car that it honestly was pretty drama free riding around like that. Damn BMW and their ridiculous prices...and damn me and my fear of owning a German car.

In reply to Klayfish:

But what if you never had a real opportunity to actually experience that performance when you owned the car?

Is the potential of that still worth it?

In reply to alfadriver:

Probably not, but it's hard to imagine a situation where you wouldn't have the opportunity to experience that performance. No, you may not get to take it on a racetrack. But when I've had fast cars, most of which I never tracked or autox'd, I can promise you that I experienced their 0-60 capabilities many, many times while commuting with it. Or 35-65, especially coming off a clover leaf ramp, or whatever the situation would legally and safely allow. In those situations, if money were no object, I'd much prefer to do that in a 450hp car than a 110hp one. I'm not implying at all that I drive like a Fast N Furious wanna be, not even close (I work in auto insurance after all...). But within the confines of being safe and not wildly breaking laws, I enjoy the performance that a car offers.

In reply to Klayfish:

And that reasoning is why I will always suggest that people drive the cars. For some, the performance that you can realistically get is worth it. For others, it's not. Some of us have that cloverleaf just once a day, and 50-70% of the time, someone is in front of us. Same for the drag race up the straight on-ramp.

And for others, something in the 300hp range does the same thing, on a relative basis.

Plus, it's an entirely different argument when logic and numbers go out the window to emotion. If someone thinks a car like the Alfa 8C is the most beautiful thing in the world, and you lust over it- then what it actually can do is pretty moot.

An ND is fast now, but you need to drive a C6 or C7 Corvette to decide. Used-car dealers will let you out in a 'Vette long enough to make up your mind.

Ransom wrote: I wonder whether figuring some attributes which are more important for this role than others... "Ready thrust" seems like one. On the street, something that feels eager and isn't always off cam or off boost is fun. "Responsive and communicative"; not that a bunch of grip isn't good, but what's fun at sane speeds is something that feels lively and intuitive. I'm still figuring this out myself. The WRX was neat, but the thrust was rarely useful outside of onramps. I did basically like the feel of it, but it didn't feel as good as the E30, which didn't feel as good as the 2002 (but now we've worked back to stuff you might not want to live with every day...) I think in your shoes I might be curious about a new Mustang. Or maybe not. I'm okay with the Mini as an appliance, and retreating to old cars for genuine grins.

Put a supercharger on it! Whatever is fun to drive but needs instant acceleration. Supercharge it!

Klayfish wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: The trick is finding a car that's not compromised by its performance.

This is my feeling. I'm sorry, but I've gotten over the "driving a slow car fast is more fun" thing. No, it's not. Not to me. I'm not saying it's not fun at all, because it is. The NA/NB/NC Miata are great examples. None of them are fast, but having just bought my 6th Miata, I'll agree they're an absolute hoot to drive. One of the most...if not THE most...fun overall cars I've ever owned. Yes, the NC is faster than it feels, but it's still not a fast car. As much as I love the Miata, given a choice I'd take more power all day, every day. However, the key to making it fun is not having to make all kinds of compromises to get that performance. The FFR Cobra I once had is a great example. Not many people use it as a DD...though I knew a few people when I was in the Cobra club who had short commutes and used it nearly daily (except on rainy days). My car was roughly 375-400hp and weighed 2200lbs. It had gobs and gobs of performance...but honestly anything more than a 30 minute ride in the car started to get punishing. I had the opportunity to go to BMWs plant in South Carolina in late 2015 and do their driving experience. They turned you loose (no instructor in the car) on their roughly 1 mile road course. I got to absolutely hammer the 2016 M4, M5, Z4, X5M on the track. Those were all cars that blew my mind performance wise, but I could have seen myself comfortably commuting day to day in them. Perfect balance. Then the instructor took the M5 out with three of us as passengers and drifted around the entire track. It was really cool, but the M5 was such a comfy car that it honestly was pretty drama free riding around like that. Damn BMW and their ridiculous prices...and damn me and my fear of owning a German car.

This is actually why I sold my Locost. It wasn't getting driven because, while it was such an incredibly involving drive, it was also incredibly demanding. If I drove it to work, it would be a half hour before my scalp stopped twitching and I settled down enough to get anything done. Going out for a fun drive meant coming home smelling like exhaust and picking pebbles out of my shirt. It just didn't know how to do anything but full bore crazy time. So I found myself using it less and less. Once I got a second car that was usually used for track work, it just never got used.

wearymicrobe wrote: Given the choice I would take a properly setup ND miata every single day over my ACR Viper on a road trip or even around town I would take the Miata 95% of the time. I would take a 911S over a Turbo as well due to being able to push it harder on the street and not go to jail. On the street say 8lb/hp is starting to get un-fun for me, you simply cannot use it legally. Sub say 6.0 lb/hp is straight up not fun at all, then it actually becomes fun again around 3.5-4.0 lb/hp as it is basically uncontrollable and more of a laugh.

That is essentially why my ex-g/f sold her '97 M3 after buying her '03 MCS. It wasn't an intentional decision - the MINI was bought to be her daily driver replacement for a '93 Passat GLX. But after a year or so, she realized she had to "force" herself to drive the M3 once in awhile. The MINI was simply more useable on public roads.

Keith Tanner wrote: This is actually why I sold my Locost. It wasn't getting driven because, while it was such an incredibly involving drive, it was also incredibly demanding. If I drove it to work, it would be a half hour before my scalp stopped twitching and I settled down enough to get anything done. Going out for a fun drive meant coming home smelling like exhaust and picking pebbles out of my shirt. It just didn't know how to do anything but full bore crazy time. So I found myself using it less and less. Once I got a second car that was usually used for track work, it just never got used.

That somewhat describes why I'm not overly sad about my classic Mini getting totaled and sold. While it was fun, it was also demanding. More demanding than my Spitfire or GT6. Since I am often restricted to only driving my classic cars to work on an occasional Friday (a roughly 100 mile round trip), if the car can't do that comfortably, then it won't get driven much. The Spitfire and GT6 feel like luxury cars compared to a Mk I Mini.

My Mustang has about 8 lbs/horsepower. I do not daily drive it. Why? Because it's frustrating to be stuck in rush-hour traffic knowing you have 450 ponies that cannot be properly used. I only drive it to work on days that I know I can take the long way home through the mountains.

I daily drive a Fusion with the 2.0L Ecoboost (the same in the Focus ST). The midrange torque between about 3k-6k makes a much more tolerable DD. It also helps in traffic.

Now, that being said, a stock Mustang suspension is very comfortable. Have you considered one of the new Ecoboost Mustangs?

To be fun to street drive for me a car needs to:

1a) Have gobs torque available in the low-mid RPM ranges so I can use it pretty much whenever.

or

1b) If it requires revving the snot out of it to wake it up that's fine too, it needs to be such that I can run through 2nd and at least a decent chunk of 3rd without getting arrested. My AW11 was best example of this I've owned.

2) Be nimble and responsive without being twitchy or jarring

3) Have good, but not necessarily amazing grip. Ideally this should just be a matter of tires so that I can change crank up the grip for other uses.

4) Decent heat (hey, I live in MN, chattering teeth and freezing fingers make driving less fun)

While I kind of agree with the 8 to 1 business, I'd qualify that a bit.

My daily driver is exactly 8:1, it can do a 1/4 in the 12s, yet it gets 30+ mpg and is very tractable if driven normally.

Only two ways I can think of getting that combination. First, a small engine with a turbo (I run aa 2.0 Ecotec with 375 bhp in a Solstice) or a small normally aspirated engine with variable valve timing (e.g. S2000).

In both cases the cars are civilized yet you can dial up as much excitement as you feel like at a given time.

wearymicrobe wrote: Given the choice I would take a properly setup ND miata every single day over my ACR Viper on a road trip or even around town I would take the Miata 95% of the time. I would take a 911S over a Turbo as well due to being able to push it harder on the street and not go to jail. On the street say 8lb/hp is starting to get un-fun for me, you simply cannot use it legally. Sub say 6.0 lb/hp is straight up not fun at all, then it actually becomes fun again around 3.5-4.0 lb/hp as it is basically uncontrollable and more of a laugh.

This is known as the inverse Bell curve of fun

The bike is my daily, with me on it it's about 5.6/1. The Civic with me in it is about 25/1. Both are fun.

calteg wrote:

wearymicrobe wrote: Given the choice I would take a properly setup ND miata every single day over my ACR Viper on a road trip or even around town I would take the Miata 95% of the time. I would take a 911S over a Turbo as well due to being able to push it harder on the street and not go to jail. On the street say 8lb/hp is starting to get un-fun for me, you simply cannot use it legally. Sub say 6.0 lb/hp is straight up not fun at all, then it actually becomes fun again around 3.5-4.0 lb/hp as it is basically uncontrollable and more of a laugh.

This is known as the inverse Bell curve of fun

Its definitely a weird curve.

This is why I want to build a death kart around 10 lb/hp and tire limit it a bit. Should be a blast on the street and I can drive it full 8/10ths on the street and not go stupid fast.

My experience in modern musclecars is that they deliver their power in boring ways through tall gears and giant tires. Over time i've developed the opinion that a car that delivers what it has with some drama is more fun than a car that delivers its performance too casually. I think when you get to 'actually high' speeds, the inverse is true, but at normal 0-80ish speeds i'm fine with having to put in a little work to keep the thing from getting away from me while goofing off. Short gears, defeatable or nonexistent TCS/ESP, a certain amount of noise/tactile feedback, and the feeling of experiencing something you have to intentionally seek out are important to me.

In general i get my normal-speed kicks by driving slow cars from the 80s pretty hard. The 1987 Montero i've been driving recently has seen 6000 rpm a couple of times. It makes no power there. It has a similar stroke to a big block american v8. Whatever! I don't fear breaking it or flying dangerously out of control, and i enjoy the mild sense of occasion of attempting to haul ass in a bouncy, tall, narrow, short-wheelbase, underpowered trail rig with a light shifter and pedals that are suspiciously perfect for heel-and-toe. Before that i was getting my kicks with my open-downpipe stripped-interior 5spd turbo minivan that is not truly fast (mid-low 14s 1/4) but gives its performance with PLENTY of drama. My 1982 Lebaron convertible is SUPER slow and ill-handling, but i've slammed it so far down that driving requires constant road-scanning, and it turns heads nonstop. Even though its very slow, you're also very engaged with what's around you, especially with the top down. Last few days ive been driving my girlfriend's ZQ8 S10 around while i did some suspension work and a semi-race alignment on it. It's got the right combo of torque and low grip to engage in casual little drifts around every wide curve at 3-4k rpm.

Sometimes i just want to relax, so i drive my 911.

In reply to Vigo:

You bring up an interesting point mentioning tall gears. In my experience "fun to drive" is pretty proportional to the final drive ratio. Malaise era American car with a 2.73 rear end? Boring. Old 2WD 4 cylinder XJ that probably handles worse, has roughly the same power/weight, and 4.10s? berkeleying riot.

This thread is what goes on in my head every damn day. Thank you for making me feel normal again.

With that being said.... I've had quite the gambit of DDs in the past 3 years and had the same aspirations as you. Something engaging yet comfortable. Fast but no brutal and most of all reliable.

IMO there's a ton of great options out there. FoST, FiST, STI, WRX, M cars, Civic Si, GTI, Golf R, BRZ/86, Miata, etc. That are all affordable and will get the job done in some way shape or form. If not, there's aftermarkets for all of those.

My fiesta st makes me giggle at every roundabout. It's not 'fun' when it comes to highway pulls. (Not a slug either). At city+ speeds, it's a hoot. Plenty of response and great midrange.

DirtyBird222 wrote: This thread is what goes on in my head every damn day. Thank you for making me feel normal again.

Yep, me too. Constant car ADD and wondering about other options. Just picked up a 2000 Camaro Z28 and am enjoying the power and noise. Am still in the honeymoon phase and can imagine possibly getting tired of it, but that should hopefully take a while. More than anything I'm trying to find something cheap to try and get into rallycross with that scratches a different itch. Maybe something FWD with Vtec that all the kids are crazy for. Or something turbo. Or an old BMW... or or or... the list goes on...

Sky_Render wrote: My Mustang has about 8 lbs/horsepower. I do not daily drive it. Why? Because it's frustrating to be stuck in rush-hour traffic knowing you have 450 ponies that cannot be properly used. I only drive it to work on days that I know I can take the long way home through the mountains. I daily drive a Fusion with the 2.0L Ecoboost (the same in the Focus ST). The midrange torque between about 3k-6k makes a much more tolerable DD. It also helps in traffic.

I take the opposite approach to that. I agree it can be frustrating not being able to use 450 ponies all the time in rush hour. But to me, it's even more frustrating having to use each and every last one of the whopping 148hp in my Elantra to squeeze into holes in rush hour traffic. I really like my Elantra, it's an awesome "beater" car, but it sucks donkey trying to change lanes or things like that in Atlanta rush hour. I enjoy it much more when I've get endless power at my right foot and can just squeeze the pedal and go. I drive the Elantra because I'm a cheap ass and would rather spend the money on my kids and LeMons, but when that financial situation changes...however long from now that is...the Elantra is getting ditched for something that can smoke the tires on command.

I think we're leaving out the sound element. When I test drive the NC Miata and FR-S side by side, one of the things that sold me on the Miata is the sound it makes at 3/4 throttle between 4500 - 6000 RPM. That's everyday on ramp speed. Everyday enjoyment is downshifting once entering a tunnel and accelerating through the top of the RPM range.

Driving the Fiesta ST daily is a riot. I feel like I am using more of the car's potential on a daily basis than I would in a Vette. That said, I've never owned a truly powerful car, so I can't honestly compare. If I drove a Corvette, I may get to work in half the time!

chaparral wrote: An ND is fast now, but you need to drive a C6 or C7 Corvette to decide. Used-car dealers will let you out in a 'Vette long enough to make up your mind.

I DD a C5 Z06. I've never been a Vette guy, quite the opposite. But I drove a C5 and I had to have one. To me it drives like a sport/luxury car when cruising. Very comfortable - and it's a Z06.

If I were to go on a road trip, there's no other place I'd rather be. You should at least drive one. Even the coupe is a performance bargain, and the killer fuel economy is icing on the cake.