Ping: The GRM Road Racing community..(long post)

It's often been said that racing requires more honesty than any other sport in the world. So, time to be honest. I'm wondering if I made a mistake while working corners at Road Atlanta today. I'm looking for comments from drivers and workers, should there be any other Corner Workers (present or past) here. AutoX guys, apologies for leaving you out, but working a Solo course is a lot different than the choice I had to make today.

Full disclosure: I'm posting up here first, because so many of the SCCA Worker forums are full of people who think the "tail wags the dog"..i.e., some of my fellow workers that focus upon procedures, and tend to forget that without the presence of actual racing cars, there would be no need for such proceedures in the first place. When I was an active corner worker during the 80s-90s, I thought that we were there to serve our sport, and my (very) short time as a racing driver during the same era actually confirmed (to me, at least, YMMV) that flagging and accident response procedures should be created to preserve the continuity of the racing. Y'all that hate to see the safety car called out for a single drop of rain, or a waving yellow flag for an incident 30yds off the racing line..I'm one of you.

So, here `tiz..I'm the blue flag/upstream safety responder at Turn 11, Road Atlanta. We don't have enough bodies to man the new flagging station on Drivers' Right before the bridge, so we're flagging from the T11 Kiosk right behind the bridge on Drivers' Left. Guy in a production-based (for SCCA guys, it was an STU car) RX8 comes out of T10B, gets on the throttle a lil' too soon with the left rear on the curb, and the car starts to loop clockwise. He tries to catch it, but it snaps back and spins CCW..and the poor guy backs it into the concrete bridge abutment Drivers' Left (strikes it with the RR). I have to admit, it was a pretty hard hit.

Guy's not moving very much, but I figure he doesn't realize how much damage he's taken (forgot to mention, this is about 45min into a 3hr enduro) and he's trying to fire it back up and continue (I can see him looking down at the dash, and his right arm extended to where the ignition/starter switch would be in a modified street car). I grab the fire extinguisher, jump down to the track level..and have to decide from which side to approach the car. Drivers' Right (my left, the car's upstream of the station) puts me in the road, and IMO keeps the drivers of the cars that are actually still driving on it from having enough room to to manuver. OTOH, running Drivers' Left (my right), although it would be the standard corner worker "keep the car between you and the traffic", places me in the 2-foot gap between that car and the concrete wall.

Nice choice, eh. Run out in the road and risk causing an additional impact because a driver's got less space to "rein it in", or run in the gap between the car and the wall, and get crushed like a cockroach if somebody else "loses the handle" like our guy did, and piles into our crash site. I decide to run the gap. Planning to try to jump on the hood of the thing if somebody else comes to visit us.

Weird thing: By this time, our downsteam safety responder has come to help, and he reads the situation differently. He didn't see the driver reach for the key, and he's afraid that since the impact was so hard, the driver may be hurt. He cuts to the other side of the car than I (out into the road) because that's the side of the car where the driver is, and he wants to assess the driver's health. I immediately wonder if I made the right choice. After all, if the other worker (first time I'd worked with him, but he was a solid enough worker all weekend..by the time of this incident, I trusted him) was willing to risk being splattered by some driver who didn't slow for the yellow, he must have seen something about the driver of the RX that I didn't..

So..two options, two people, two different decisions. We ended up OK, because even though we chose two different actions, the rest of the drivers either took the flags at T10 seriously, or saw the car in the concrete at the bridge, and could imagine themselves in a similar impact.

I guess I'm asking y'all to revisit those painful middle school days when they forced you to read "The Lady or The Tiger", but I'd really like to hear what our community thinks about the whole thing.

Funny thing (and actually, the "spoiler" about the tale): m'self and the other worker reach the car at the same time. The driver's cranking on the key for all he's worth, and we can hear the "whump-whump-whump" of someone trying to restart a hot rotary. We both said to the driver, "..right rear's done! Let's get the berkeley out of here!!.." at the same damn time.

I also must admit..this is one time that I didn't call the Stewards a "wuss" for calling a full-course yellow.

Apologies again for the length..but somtimes it takes a bunch of words to explain a complicated thing.

DOH! For y'all not familiar with Road Atlanta, here's a track map.

I'm an autocross guy, so I'm not going to say anything about right or wrong.

friedgreencorrado wrote: So..two options, two people, two different decisions, two different views, two different histories to play into personal decisions

Added in something there that is very important that you did explain, but kind of glossed over. I'm an ice-hockey referee, and there is a reason that there are 2 (or 3 or 4 if you have linesmen) ref's on the ice. Just tonight, I called a penalty that was a clear penalty that my partner told me later he thought would have been a penalty on the other player. Not that he's a bad ref, but he had a different view. Same situation here. It seems that neither one of you made a bad decision; you saw different scenario's and have different pasts that made you each make your own decision. Once again, I won't say right or wrong because I have no idea on what is the protocall. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Seems like a review from the corner-captain is in order.

If you clearly saw him trying to restart then it is reasonable to assume he is not injured enough to be looking for you - keeping yourself out of harm's way (well, lesser of two evils really) was the smart move.

The other guy, not having your same viewpoint, made an assessment based on the damage and also did the right thing.

Look at it this way - you could have maybe been there a few seconds earlier. You would have saved his battery and nothing else would be different.

Speaking as a driver for some 40 years, I think the the worker always needs to consider their own safety. I was in two incidents this year that I think highlight this. One was at the Glen where a driver missed the standing yellow flag at one station and the waving yellow at the next station and passed me, putting everyone at risk. The cause of the yellow was a car that hit the armco coming onto the front straight and was right on the exit line. I anticipated the pass and slowed enough not to make a bad situation worse. You can't depend on the fact that all drivers will see or respond appropriately to a yellow flag. The other was at the Runoffs in qualifying where I broke my shifter coming out of turn 5 and was stuck in neutral. I coasted to a stop on drivers right just beyond the bridge prior to turn 6. The flag workers signaled me to get out of the car, but I would have had to exit on the traffic side. I was definitely safer in the car and stayed there. As a driver, unless there was a clear indication that I was seriously hurt, I would not want any worker putting themselves at risk unecessarily. It always comes down to a judgement you have to make quickly and while under great stress, but having seen workers hurt or killed, I would always say err on the side of personal safety.

I know exactly where on the track you guys were, and all I can say is it takes some steel to jump over the wall there. 10-12 is probably the highest driver workload spot (thus highest flagman workload spot) on the course due to the downhill, corner, sweeping elevation up to the bridge, then the sweeping downhill back to the pit area. I have always feared someone clipping the bridge and ending up just over the hill on course beyond an incoming car's LOS and all the bad things that would result. I don't envy the situation and yeah I think just about everyone who has commented is right on, 2 workers, 2 points of view, 2 actions, either one of which could be considered dangerous or heroic depending on how events unfolded, luckily it all worked out.

edit: what your map doesn't show is the elevation changes and how the bridge obstructs the over the hill view until you clear to the other side...

I've never raced or worked a corner, but I have driven RA a few times during HPDE's. Knowing that corner, all I can do is echo Raze's thoughts. Corner workers in general are heroic. Seeing you guys jump over the wall into the fray always amazes me. Kudos for making a choice regardless.

I don't have much to add to the terrific comments above, but I'm considering taking up NASA SE's 'work two events, drive one free' offer next season. FGC - would you have any advice for a rookie flagger?

Driver's have a lot of safety gear on their bodies and in their cars because they are accepting a high level of risk out on the course. Drivers know the risks and accept them, and have to understand that workers have to be responsible for their own safety as well. You accepted the corner worker position, and the drivers accept that you will make the best call that you can with the information that you are faced with.

Ever situation is different and every workers view of what is happening is different. You can only respond to what you have seen, I find nothing wrong with what you did, compared to say, freezing.

Heroes are the ones who run TOWARD the crisis when everyone else is running away. That makes flaggers and fireman big heroes to me. You make your best call and try to never stop learning. Your safety is your number one priority!

David

nderwater wrote: I don't have much to add to the terrific comments above, but I'm considering taking up NASA SE's 'work two events, drive one free' offer next season. FGC - would you have any advice for a rookie flagger?

First, remember that someone should always be looking upstream. We don't often have the numbers of workers we did, and a lot of folks can't use the "belly to belly" (each worker watches the other's back) anymore. Always remember that cars have a lot of weight, carry a lot of momentum, and can end up damn near anywhere. Being a corner worker (like racing in general! ) means there'll never be a day when you can say, "..now I've seen it all..". This also means, when you're inside the fence on a "hot" track, always focus on the traffic-and keep checking on your fellow workers. No cell phone calls, no taking pictures, no flirting with the pretty girl on the spectator fence (okay, I've broken that one..). Stay focused.

Remember that the flags should show the location of an accident and the condition of the race track, and not how spectacular the accident was. The most common example of "overflagging" is when someone goes off the road, makes a hard impact, and the flagger gets excited. They start waving the yellow like mad, even though the car is off the surface. Remember: a standing yellow simply means "do not pass"..a waving one means "you may have to go around something in the road". Overflagging is potentially dangerous, because if you show "too much" flag (like a waving yellow for a car that's in a tire wall 30ft off the track), the driver may not believe you when you go waving for a car sideways in the middle of the road.

Oh, and the blue flag just means "check your mirrors", not "move over". In addition, if two guys are racing for position, they should know where each other is (IMO, that's part of what makes it a sport! )..so no blue is required. Pay attention to the cars' speed differential-use the blue to get the quick guys through the slow ones during qualifying, and to get the leaders through the backmarkers during the race. The blue is probably the most misused flag in motor racing (right guys? ), and using it well will gain a lot of drivers' trust when you have to reach into the bag for the other flags. A driver (speaking for m'self, but I suspect a lot of the other drivers will agree) who likes the way you use the blue will usually figure that you can use the hazard flags properly as well.

Flagging's kind of like being Enzo the Dog. All you have is gestures. Make sure they're the right ones.

Learn the hand signals..nobody can hear a human voice over the traffic unless you're about 3in. away from their ear. And they're fun!

Here's a link to a pretty good info page put together by an old buddy of mine from NC Region SCCA, we flagged together for years (and probably will again, now that I'm working turns again).

http://www.yopics.net/Flaggin/

Good luck! You'll never look at racing the same way again, once you've had the 2nd best seat in the house..

Thanks for the replies, everyone! Yeah, I think it was just a weird incident. I'm not angry with my "partner in crime" at all. It was an honest difference of opinion (and he told me later that if the car had been 20ft away from the wall, instead of just 2, he would have approached that side as well). We had a great time working together, and both of us are really looking forward to working together again.

And Don, thanks for the reminder that some guys just are blind to flags sometimes..most of us that have done this for awhile have kind of noticed that a guy doing that has a different "body language" coming from his car than the rest of the pack. We can kind of see them coming. But hey, this is racing, right? We try to be as safe as we can, but it's just a hazardous sport sometimes.

Raze: Yeah, man. We were so stoked that the car stopped before the crest of the hill, and even happier that it stayed out of the road. I have to admit, it's better now with the chicane at T10, since the cars are coming into T11 a lot slower than they did back in the days of "The Dip", but it's still not a Saturday Night dance to be running around down there.

oldsaw: The worker shortage got us again. There were only three of us, and there really wasn't a "captain" per se. We had one combined communication/yellow flag position, an upstream safety/blue flag position, and a downstream safety responder in the long hole. We just kind of rotated through all threee positions all day. We did all get together and talk about the incident at length, and we're pretty confident that it wasn't a bad response, given the terrain. The Flag Chief agreed, so I'm not sweating it. I apologized to the FC for sticking myself in the 2ft gap, and he said it was probably the ingrained training to always keep the car between yourself and the traffic. He also said, "..there's a long line of sight there, you probably would have made it to the hood if somebody else was headed your way." BTW: He was also good with the other responder's choice, after he heard that the worker was worried about the driver's health.

Just another day at Road Atlanta..

friedgreencorrado wrote: And Don, thanks for the reminder that some guys just are blind to flags sometimes..most of us that have done this for awhile have kind of noticed that a guy doing that has a different "body language" coming from his car than the rest of the pack. We can kind of see them coming. But hey, this is racing, right? We try to be as safe as we can, but it's just a hazardous sport sometimes.

I think, a lot of times... this is a stamina issue. At the club level there are all shapes and ages out there. I do in-car instruction to pay for my track time. During a 25min session, even with advanced students you can hear their breathing change in the headset and you can see how they start to get target fixation as the session/day progresses. Iron grip on the wheel... slow reactions to other cars. I have had to call out flags to more than a few guys with enough experience that you could assume have the muscle memory to look at the station without even thinking. Like you said - just when you think you have seen it all... someone takes you down the NASCAR straight instead of going down into the boot at the Glen(true story).

In an enduro race with a bunch of weekday desk jockeys in their 30s to 60s I imagine over half the field is really struggling for focus in the GA heat on those last 10 laps.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: And Don, thanks for the reminder that some guys just are blind to flags sometimes..most of us that have done this for awhile have kind of noticed that a guy doing that has a different "body language" coming from his car than the rest of the pack. We can kind of see them coming. But hey, this is racing, right? We try to be as safe as we can, but it's just a hazardous sport sometimes.

I think, a lot of times... this is a stamina issue. At the club level there are all shapes and ages out there. I do in-car instruction to pay for my track time. During a 25min session, even with advanced students you can hear their breathing change in the headset and you can see how they start to get target fixation as the session/day progresses. Iron grip on the wheel... slow reactions to other cars. I have had to call out flags to more than a few guys with enough experience that you could assume have the muscle memory to look at the station without even thinking. Like you said - just when you think you have seen it all... someone takes you down the NASCAR straight instead of going down into the boot at the Glen(true story). In an enduro race with a bunch of weekday desk jockeys in their 30s to 60s I imagine over half the field is really struggling for focus in the GA heat on those last 10 laps.

Good point. I noticed the lap times increasing during the last 30min of the race (3hr enduro), and not all of it was because the team pulled out the hotshoe & replaced him with the car owner.

The car in question is being parted out.

link

TJ wrote: The car in question is being parted out. link

Thanks for the link, TJ. After we got the driver out of the car and up into the station with us, we noticed that he was still seriously angry with himself.

I'm not blaming the car owner at all. It was a hard impact..it might actually be cheaper to start over with a new tub, instead of trying to pull that one straight. Damn shame, really..the car (with the co-driver in it) was doing well before the crash.

Raze wrote: I have always feared someone clipping the bridge and ending up just over the hill on course beyond an incoming car's LOS and all the bad things that would result.

Happened at the 2008 Petit when a Prototype car spun at Turn 12 and was hit almost head-on. In the dark.