Plug In Insurance Devices - Learn me.

SVreX wrote:

wbjones wrote:

bludroptop wrote:

wbjones wrote: what other sources are providing this info ? (serious question … I'd like to know)

Same way Car Fax does - repair shops, state safety and/or emissions inspection all record mileage. The OBD-II port on most cars is under the dash, which seems an unlikely place for a GPS antenna to get a usable signal. Not saying it isn't true.

since I do as much of my repairs myself, there wouldn't be much info for them to mine … and yeah, the OBDII vehicles can have their milage checked … but nothing would tell them HOW the milage got there

The GPS tells them that. You are assuming the only data these boxes pull comes directly through the OBDII port. Not true. They have their own internal devices for collecting and storing data, including GPS. It doesn't matter what is available through the OBDII port. Once the box is on board, they can track you.

I didn't make it clear … I was responding to an earlier post that was claiming the info was there for the taking, even if you didn't have one of the devices …

I see these monitors becoming the new 'normal'. At some point in the future if you don't use one either:

a. Insurance company will not cover you.

or

b. You will pay a much, much higher rate.

I would not consent to one of these devices in any of my cars unless the insurance company was going to pay me to have their insurance and not the other way around.

That being said, ss others already mentioned, if you have a cell phone in your car or if you have a newer car with bluetooth in it, where you go, how you drive and who rides with you is already being collected and tracked. I doubt any human actually looks at the data, but that doesn't mean it is not being collected and stored.

Gearheadotaku wrote: I see these monitors becoming the new 'normal'. At some point in the future if you don't use one either: a. Insurance company will not cover you. or b. You will pay a much, much higher rate.

yep, if you don't disclose the monitor data, it will be much like today if you don't disclose age, sex, or driving record data.

But you only have it for like 6 months, it's not like it's a permanent nanny. If it makes my rates lower I don't care if you tag along to see how I drive.

Most of the comments in this thread are from people who have apparently never used one of these devices, nor read the websites for the companies that offer them.

We are a 2 driver 4 car household. I was looking for a way to reduce our insurance rates, since we don't drive any more than when we had 2 cars, but the premiums went up proportionally by car. So I tried the Progressive snapshot devices in 3 of our 4 cars (wife refused, but she drives a ton and hard stops all the time anyways). 2 of those 3 are what I would consider occasional use. I am able to adjust my driving habits around which cars have the device installed.

-The Snapshot devices do not have GPS. They communicate by cell tower, so they could track your location that way, but I don't think they do.

-The devices only track how much you drive, when you drive, and "hard brake" events

-A hard brake is defined as slowing more than 7mph per second. This is actually pretty soft, and you will trip it even while driving cautiously. Particularly if you catch a yellow light, or drive at all in bumper-bumper traffic.

-The "when you drive" part, they penalize for late night / early morning driving.

Based on some algorithm, it then gives you a percentage discount on a per-car basis.

Results: -I'm getting 8-10% discount for cars that drive on average very few miles (~10) per week, with <2 hard stops among those miles. This seems like a bad deal to me, I'm paying a lot of money to insure cars that sit in the driveway.

-The devices don't always work, even when plugged in sometimes will not power up. When this occurs, it isn't tracking your driving. It may decide to turn on part way through your trip.

-Having the device in the car is a safety issue, if the thought enters your mind to run that yellow/red light rather than having it beep.

-They advertise as though you get a 1 month trial, which sets initial discount, then a 5 month monitor period, for a total of six months. What really happens is they will make you keep the device hooked up until your next renewal, so it could be 11 months if timed poorly.

-I suspect they have an 8% floor on the discount offered for using the program, based on watching mine fluctuate up and down. This may roll into an 8% premium increase at next renewal, will see.

In the end I'm not satisfied with the discount provided and will be shopping elsewhere.

MattGent wrote: Most of the comments in this thread are from people who have apparently never used one of these devices, nor read the websites for the companies that offer them.

I fall into that category. I'd rather pay 8% extra and not provide the data. That's my choice. Maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't. Enjoy your discount, glad you like it.

MattGent wrote: Most of the comments in this thread are from people who have apparently never used one of these devices, nor read the websites for the companies that offer them. We are a 2 driver 4 car household. I was looking for a way to reduce our insurance rates, since we don't drive any more than when we had 2 cars, but the premiums went up proportionally by car. So I tried the Progressive snapshot devices in 3 of our 4 cars (wife refused, but she drives a ton and hard stops all the time anyways). 2 of those 3 are what I would consider occasional use. I am able to adjust my driving habits around which cars have the device installed. -The Snapshot devices do not have GPS. They communicate by cell tower, so they could track your location that way, but I don't think they do. -The devices only track how much you drive, when you drive, and "hard brake" events -A hard brake is defined as slowing more than 7mph per second. This is actually pretty soft, and you will trip it even while driving cautiously. Particularly if you catch a yellow light, or drive at all in bumper-bumper traffic. -The "when you drive" part, they penalize for late night / early morning driving. Based on some algorithm, it then gives you a percentage discount on a per-car basis. Results: -I'm getting 8-10% discount for cars that drive on average very few miles (~10) per week, with <2 hard stops among those miles. This seems like a bad deal to me, I'm paying a lot of money to insure cars that sit in the driveway. -The devices don't always work, even when plugged in sometimes will not power up. When this occurs, it isn't tracking your driving. It may decide to turn on part way through your trip. -Having the device in the car is a safety issue, if the thought enters your mind to run that yellow/red light rather than having it beep. -They advertise as though you get a 1 month trial, which sets initial discount, then a 5 month monitor period, for a total of six months. What really happens is they will make you keep the device hooked up until your next renewal, so it could be 11 months if timed poorly. -I suspect they have an 8% floor on the discount offered for using the program, based on watching mine fluctuate up and down. This may roll into an 8% premium increase at next renewal, will see. In the end I'm not satisfied with the discount provided and will be shopping elsewhere.

Most of that conflicts with what I was told by my insurance company when I asked them very direct questions, instead of swallowing whole the BS they were feeding me.

You appear to be saying we should read their websites, but provide no link, then offer your perspective. Should we read their websites, or follow your perspective?

Keep in mind, all companies will vary, and policies and procedures will change within each company over a brief period of time.

It sounds like you are saying, "Trust them. They want to track and monitor your every move, but surely they won't use the data for nefarious purposes. They just collect the data, but they would never use it badly. Oh, and I was not satisfied."

No thank you.

What I'm saying is, most of this thread arguing on misunderstood hypotheticals. I provided data based on my experience with Progressive. The data isn't generally published, so you only get the perspective of the advertising. The rules are clearly published on the websites. I'm sure you can access Google.

The unit doesn't have a GPS, and neither does my car.

Understand what you are getting into then make a business decision. Ignoring potential savings based on the boogey-man isn't an educated decision. In the end 8% isn't enough for me, either, as stated above.

In reply to MattGent:

According to this article, Progressive's Snapshot DOES use GPS sometimes. "Just for research".

Article on black boxes

As you suggested, I'd just like to make an informed business decision.

The "Boogeyman" is not that they might be tracking me. The Boogeyman is that the info from every possible source (including you) is so convoluted that it is DESIGNED to PREVENT me from being well informed.

I'm glad you are confident in your decision. I am not.

Progressive's privacy policy says they have GPS:

Progressive privacy policy

BTW, quick spelling lesson. Boogeyman/Boogieman:

Bogeyman:

My grandfather was one of the most dangerous drivers I ever met.

He never drove fast, never cornered hard, never braked hard, and was never in an accident.

But he was careless, unfocused, inconsiderate, and stubborn. He drifted all over the road, and caused others to have accidents trying to avoid him.

I'm pretty sure no black box would have ever identified him as a poor driver.

^This is what I always say about these things. The oblivious old granny that everyone's dodging will look like a saint. The dodgers will look like maniacs.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

That's funny.

But spell check will do what spellcheck will do. ;-)

Hmm...

I wonder how you spell spellcheck...

T.J. wrote: I would not consent to one of these devices in any of my cars unless the insurance company was going to pay me to have their insurance and not the other way around. That being said, ss others already mentioned, if you have a cell phone in your car or if you have a newer car with bluetooth in it, where you go, how you drive and who rides with you is already being collected and tracked. I doubt any human actually looks at the data, but that doesn't mean it is not being collected and stored.

wouldn't that have to be a smart phone … those of us still living in the dark ages should be ok … right?

SVreX wrote: My grandfather was one of the most dangerous drivers I ever met. He never drove fast, never cornered hard, never braked hard, and was never in an accident. But he was careless, unfocused, inconsiderate, and stubborn. He drifted all over the road, and caused others to have accidents trying to avoid him. I'm pretty sure no black box would have ever identified him as a poor driver.

I think this is the solution. Sign up for the program but plug into grandma's car. Low miles, low speeds, and no night driving.

Gearheadotaku wrote:

SVreX wrote: My grandfather was one of the most dangerous drivers I ever met. He never drove fast, never cornered hard, never braked hard, and was never in an accident. But he was careless, unfocused, inconsiderate, and stubborn. He drifted all over the road, and caused others to have accidents trying to avoid him. I'm pretty sure no black box would have ever identified him as a poor driver.

I think this is the solution. Sign up for the program but plug into grandma's car. Low miles, low speeds, and no night driving.

Or if you want to get really tricky, plug it into your car and drive grandma's car for 6 months while your car sits and gets mega discount. Then when you send the snapshot back, give grandma's car back and enjoy the savings for a long time!

The 6 month thing is a fallacy too.

It can easily be 11 months (depending on the billing cycle), and discounted rates will always be subject to continued monitoring.

In other words, they can make you keep it.

Having worked on a Big Data project to capture and analyze the data streams from these devices, I can speak to their capability.
1) Direct interface to your vehicle ECU. That gives access to everything it handles, speed, RPM, odometer, baro pressure, fuel level and rate, O2 sensor, everything.
2) On board 3 axis accelerometer to 0.01 G resolution. Every movement in every direction.
3) GPS, able to resolve to 0.1 meter, depending on location, signal path, etc.
4) On board cellular connection for upload of stored data, also capable of coarse triangulation (perhaps 10 feet).
5) Data capture rate is 1 second, storage capable for up to 1 hour between uploads.
6) Onboard clock, accurate to 1 second per year or better, corrections from GPS or Cellular network.
7) Encrypted data stream, so don't bother trying to spoof it.

Do not fool yourself that they will not know how fast you are going, or what the speed limit is.
They will know precisely where you drive, park, when, and for how long.

Don't even think that you can fool it by plugging it into another car, since each ECU has a unique ID tied to the VIN.

The long term vision is metered insurance, on demand. Pay only for what you use.
You pay only for where and when you drive or park based on detailed loss experience for that location, time and date, the car you are in, traffic density, weather conditions, etc.

In an ideal world, for some folks, that could be cheaper and fairer insurance.
Certainly could yield fair and accurate costs for good drivers.
So costs based on the actual real world results of individual behaviors, rather than very broad general actuarial groups (ie under 25, Male, etc.).

Not saying I like it, just sharing what I know.

Well, here's another way to look at it.

Here is data that shows average miles per year by gender and age group.https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm

Assuming all other things equal (driving record, type of car, etc) your individual risk as a driver is directly related to the number of miles you drive (drive more miles, higher likelyhood of crashes). therefore, you can bet your insurance company is betting you drive the average, unless they have reason to believe otherwise. Telling them how many miles you drive per year is a voluntary way to give them a reason to believe you are not the average, and they can then adjust your risk level and your rate accordingly.

I would not suggest these devices if you drive 50% more than the average. But if you drive 50% less, they might be a good idea.

In reply to erohslc:

That's good to know. Thanks for posting.

In reply to erohslc:

You posted between when I started and when I finished my last post (I got, er, distracted). Sounds like a cool project.

I'm putting on my flame suit now, but I am all about paying for insurance based on what I use. Sorta like how I pay for my gas...

Klayfish wrote:

Feedyurhed wrote: Insurance companies more likely use this information to defend you you when an accident and/or law suit is involved. They are doing this either to save you in claims against you I may be a conspiracy theorist but the less intrusion in my life from big business and the government the better. That's a big hell no from me.

FTFY. The data pulled from the cars' recorders is used by insurance companies in defense of a suit filed against you for injuries you caused to someone else. Think about it rationally for a second...you have an accident...heaven forbid a serious one. The other person gets an attorney because they think you are at fault. They are suing you. Not the insurance company, that's not how it works. The claim is made against YOU. The insurance company's job is to defend you and try to settle that claim so you aren't exposed personally. What rationale would they have to try to use data/evidence against you??? To raise your rate by $1000 year, yet have to shell out $100,000 in claim settlement if they try to use the data against you? What business sense would that make? When you have an accident, the insurance company has very strong motive to try to defend you...not prosecute you. So yes, your thought there is very conspiracy theorist. Funny how this works. People rant and rave against insurance companies, say it's a conspiracy, etc... Yet when they cause a serious accident, who's the first one those very same people often hide behind? Their insurance company.

I deal with insurance companies all day, everyday. They can be summed up in one word. Money. Making it or saving it. OK that's business. I get it. I am not ranting and raving against them, I am talking from experience. And I basically agree with your scenario but that's only one. There are plenty of others with multiple variations. Like a one car accident. Oh you were driving too fast and failed to brake on that turn and now you are injured and permanently disabled. The insurance company has that information now thanks to the little gizmo and maybe they decide that you need only six instead of 12 months of therapy or you don't deserve lifetime loss of work benefits or maybe less per year because you were at fault or double your rates or drop you all together. I don't know how it will work. I do know that the court system is clogged with cases of people suing their insurance carriers because they feel that they have been cut off unfairly. I have seen many people that will never reach pre-accident status and I am talking loss of limbs and eyes etc. and are told by their insurance companies after year or so, you are fine, go about your business and leave us alone. You are all better, no more benefits for you. So yes maybe that thing can help in some cases but I think overall it's more likely going to be used against the consumer and/or for the insurance companies benefit. And I wouldn't say "hiding behind the insurance company" I would say "defending me because I have paid tens of thousands of dollars over the years in premiums for them to do so in the event I need them".

So we both have our opinions. When my car was hit and totaled a few years ago the insurance company paid off quickly and with a fair price. I was glad I had them. We need insurance companies. They are also a target for fraud, scammers, unscrupulous lawyers ect. Two sides to every story and so on. I see mostly the bad side......... so yes I am jaded.