Porsche 944 vs BMW vs ??

In 1994, when I bought my 944 Turbo, it was a performance bargain. In the 22 years since, I've always kept a 924/944 in my life. I've had every iteration of the model, from basic 924 to 924S, 944S, and a whole bunch of NA cars, both pre- and post- 85. Recently, my shop has been inundated with old 944s with truly vexing problems, and I'm so sick of being beaten by them, that I find myself reevaluating my love for those cars. I don't know if my 944 turbo was really all that great, or if I was just starry eyed at having my first Porsche. But, in 2016, they don't seem like such a performance bargain anymore. Maybe the game has just moved on, but in today's world, they are heavy, slow, understeer like a farm implement and are an awful combination of fragile and expensive to fix. I wonder if an E36 or E46 BMW would do all of the things the 944 does, only better. And, that includes frequent, spontaneous and expensive component failure. To that end, I'm thinking of selling off my last remaining 944 (an NA 8V 1987 model). But, what, then, do I replace it with? The requirements are simple:rear wheel drive, manual transmission, good visibility, reasonably reliable, and able to be pressed into last minute autocross action if my Boxster is blown apart for upgrades at the time of the event, as it so often is. Oh, and cheap. It has to be cheap.

Miata....

You know someone is going to say it.

Been wrestling with this issue myself recently and just not a lot of acceptable vehicles. Old RX's, 944, Boxsters, Cobra's??? Vette's havent come down in price enough. Yeah, I sent out 3 emails today on CL Miata. I like my MR2 Spyder but it is difficult to develop into a performance vehicle. Any other ideas?

"Carbon" is going to say IS300, and whenry, you should probably talk to him about your MR Spyder. He's got a really well sorted one that positively screws

My experience with e36/e46 and 944s is that the BMWs are cheaper to maintain. At least if you diy.

I would suggest going with an E46. Most people reported theirs to be more reliable than my E36. However, since mine isn't my DD anymore, it hasn't broke like it did before. The later RX-8 and an occasional C4 Corvette may fit the bill, too.

You know after thinking about it. I would get a Camaro. Pick your iteration and get the best example you can afford. Then modify to your fast. They are cheap. Parts are cheap and everywhere. All possible mods has been done and documented.

I did this build years ago but with the advent of modern engine management completely DIY I have been thinking of doing it again.

I would start with an 83 base with a 5 speed. I would use a firebird not a Camaro. Upgrade the suspension to something that can carve a few corners. I would then add a 4.3 with forced induction.

I would lower it and add garden edging skirts. 245/60/15 tires on old school alu mags.

Paint would be something dark possibly gm code 29 paint.

It would be the best at nothing but a boat load of fun.

Eureka! The answer is: SN95 Mustang. Dirt-cheap, not so old as to be fossilized, cheap parts, huge aftermarket and not super ugly. Why are they not the answer more often? Am I missing something? Do they suck in some wholely uncorrectable way?

Nope you are missing nothing. Friends of mine race one in chump car and love it.

Stock suspension is lacking but it is all documented and the parts are off the shelf.

If older is not an issue, you might look at an E21. These come with the 5 speed and LSD the earlier cars are pinning for. You can fit 15X7 rims without issue, as long as you purchase the correct rim off set. Your tire selection offers a number of options, 205/50's might not work on the front but 195/50's will. The car is camber challenged and the stock springs are "compliant". If you spend the time on www.realoem.com and look at the 323 front end parts, you will get an idea of what should be on your car.

The E36 to find is the 4 door five speed M3. Having the extra doors makes it that much easer to share the experience with your friends. And to load the autocross tires.

The Miata to find is a '95 "b" package. Prepare it to SCCA E Street specks and drive it "like your stealing it". If you replace the stock springs, do not loose them. You will be putting them back on the car. Soon.

M030 wrote: Eureka! The answer is: SN95 Mustang. Dirt-cheap, not so old as to be fossilized, cheap parts, huge aftermarket and not super ugly. Why are they not the answer more often? Am I missing something? Do they suck in some wholely uncorrectable way?

I actually asked that question on this board once and the answers were incredibly varied.

(if you don't feel like reading the thread, the short answer is that the stock chassis is very flexible, the rear axle binds like crazy, and 96+ GTs are just crap so you either want a 94-95 or a Cobra. They need a fair amount of $$$ into the suspension to work correctly, though the aftermarket is huge)

E46. If you like the feel of German cars, you're never going to be happy with a pony car, No matter how fast it is.

Tyler H wrote: E46. If you like the feel of German cars, you're never going to be happy with a pony car, No matter how fast it is.

In reply to Tyler H:

I do like the feel of German cars, but I have to be truly smitten with the decrepit old German car in question for me to be willing to spend German car repair money on it. My Boxster, for example, gets me to open my wallet regularly, as would a BMW 2002. I want to point out, though, that the Boxster really hasn't given me any problems besides window regulators and an ignition switch, so the money I spend on it is either preventative maintenance (IMS bearing upgrade, third radiator, Motorsport air-oil separator, etc) or fun stuff (euro M030 suspension, Recaros, etc). So, unlike the days of resenting every penny that my 944 would consume (and it had a voracious appetite for pennies), I enjoy spending money Upfixin der Boxster.

whenry wrote: Been wrestling with this issue myself recently and just not a lot of acceptable vehicles. Old RX's, 944, Boxsters, Cobra's??? Vette's havent come down in price enough. Yeah, I sent out 3 emails today on CL Miata. I like my MR2 Spyder but it is difficult to develop into a performance vehicle. Any other ideas?

How much do you have to spend?

You can make these cars absolutely rock on a small budget. If you've got a little more to spend, use mine as a guide and youll have excellent results for not crazy money.

Enjoy...

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/00-mr2-spyder-commute-attack-car/68482/page1/

I have never owned an E46.. but they seem like a performance bargan right now.. the last of the BMWs not to be insanely difficult to DIY. The E36 I owned was one of the best cars I have ever had the pleasure of calling mine. In the 6 or so years I had my 318ti it had exactly one "game over" failure.. and that was a fuel pump that took an hour to replace. The rest were little fiddly bits like the sunroof and window mechanisms (that are much easier to fix and keep fix than the internet would have you believe). I could run my 318ti hard day in and day and out and it never ever failed to start or make me worry it was not going to get me where I am going

In reply to sesto elemento:

I will check into it. I bought the car wanting to build a ghetto Elise and converted the SMT to manual but further mods dont seem to add that much to the game. I did do the MAF/injector upgrade.

Miata. It's been said already and I'm repeating it for emphasis. Buy a Miata.

E-street if you want to PAX well. STS/STR if you like tinkering and modding your old one (not repairing, they don't actually "break"). CSP if you want to make legitimately fast cars feel really bad about themselves.

M030 wrote: I wonder if an E36 or E46 BMW would do all of the things the 944 does, only better.

Yes and they always have for less money. They are simpler to work on as well. If it has to be really, really cheap - you want an E36 328i sedan and then find an LSD for it. It's going to cost you time and money to refurb things but I've bought a running, driving one with 140k on it in the last 6mos for $900, parted out the car for the motor and trans and ended up getting a sweet power-train for under $100.

e46 330i is what you want. Available as both a coupe and sedan, though the coupes seem to fetch a premium. They are reasonably cheap to own, DIYable and new enough that all parts are still available. They are a bit heavier than their e36 counterparts, but I think the build quality is better, you get more bang for your buck, and they do not have a biodegradable interior. Watch for coil packs.

In reply to penultimeta:

All true... but not really cheap. They are a great value though.

Tyler H wrote: E46. If you like the feel of German cars, you're never going to be happy with a pony car, No matter how fast it is.

Quoted for truth. I went from an E36 to my 4th gen Camaro and it has just never really "connected" with me in the same way the Bimmer did. Sure its fast as berkeley, does big stupid burnouts, and actually grips a lot better (wont say it handles better) than the BMW ever did, but it just doesn't have the feel of the Bimmer.

My E36 was a great car, btw. Not appreciably more expensive than the Camaro to own and only left me stranded once (weird issue with the ignition, wouldn't let me put the key in). Still ran great at ~208k when it was assassinated by a rogue Tacoma.

Tyler H wrote: E46. If you like the feel of German cars, you're never going to be happy with a pony car, No matter how fast it is.

All of this. German cars have a certain feel to them that I can't quite put my finger on without coming up with flowery phrases like "elegant solidity" that sound a lot more pretentious than the concept I'm trying to describe.

They're very mechanical feeling cars, but in a good way.

penultimeta wrote: new enough that all parts are still available.

Just remember that BMW supports all models back to the 1602 and beyond.

Tyler H wrote: E46. If you like the feel of German cars, you're never going to be happy with a pony car, No matter how fast it is.

I don't know, I went from an E36 328i (sold) to an LS430 (wife took it) to a Fox-body Mustang GT and I survived. I did like the way that the E36's doors closed, but otherwise it didn't really scream quality to me. The interior seemed cheap, but cheap in a different way from the Fox-body's cheap interior.

As far as handling, the E36 clearly felt like it handled better, but I'm not sure it actually had more grip.