Porsche rant in TTAC

I've long been a defender of Porsche's line that the Pepper wagon let them build 911's and Boxsters, and long claimed not to care as the sports cars are great, but that has started to slip with the indefensible launch of the beached whale which is so monumentally ugly if I were a valet attendant I'd park it behind the Aztec owners club cars. This, while a predictable rant does ring true to me:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/avoidable-contact-cayenne-wont-help-ya-cayenne-wont-do-you-no-good/#more-665202

Especial this bit:

That is the bar over which the Macaw must step. This is considerably more difficult than the market requirements for the 911, which are;

Those were conditions that Porsche could generally meet. But the cheaper the car, and/or the bigger the market, the higher the expectations. There’s a reason that you can buy a Cayenne Turbo S for $15,000 against an original MSRP of $143,000 just seven or eight years after it leaves Leipzig: it doesn’t meet expectations. The man who spent six figures on the Cayenne Turbo S can afford to take that loss, but his more modestly-accomplished younger brother can’t afford to take the same hit on his Macan. If you want to play in the mass market, you need to bring mass market skills to bear. There’s no evidence that Porsche has those skills. Which means that they will eventually fail, and they will fail on a scale from which there is no recovery.

I actually really liked that article, especially the comparison to the RX350. It's true, in my opinion, they are opening themselves up to comparison with real mass market car companies, and they will not fare well in that regard as they are set up now.

People will still buy them.

Porsche is running on rich playboys' fanboyism these days. That's why there's no H-pattern even as an option in the 911 GT3 RS. That's why they scuttled their plans for entry-level sports cars for fear of "damaging the brand." They want to sell expensive fashion statements to rich guys who see cars as a fashion accessory.

And Lotus has been teetering on the brink of falling into the same behavior for a while now.

It's just a VAG wearing a different badge. It's probably just a slightly reskinned Tiguan with a big brake kit. They have been selling mass market cars of questionable quality forever and people keep buying them.

No RX350 in history has ever had a quality flaw. Any potential flaws are immediately handled by Lexus Service, who lets you borrow an LS460 for the weekend and explains to you how the defect was actually your fault, and you agree because you don’t want to be the first person in history to discover a quality flaw in an RX350. When you start thinking about selling your RX350, word gets out and one day you open your front door to find a line of people trying desperately to be the highest bidder for your Lexwagon even though your five-year-old just projectile-vomited a fermented Dairy Queen sundae into the center-console buttons last week and it’s still dripping out. All used RXes continue to be worth 81% of their resale value until they are raptured into heaven from beneath their sixth owners at the 500,000-mile mark, leaving behind a satisfied family of Somali immigrants clutching a certificate good for $21,000 trade-in on a new RX350.

Gold.

How are the SUV's any worse than 924's at destroying the brand? Anything that isn't a 911 is there to make money, plain and simple. The 924 existed in a time where making small cheap sportish cars was a way to make money. It's what the Japanese were doing. Now money is being made with luxury SUV's, so Porsche is doing that.

I especially liked where he compared the RX350 to a Harrier jet.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

Have we actually figured out who owns who? Last I heard they had each managed to buy controlling interest in the other.

I particularly liked the intro. It's a great analogy, and just like that girl, I'm sure Porsche just thinks it's doing what it needs to survive.

In reply to mazdadeuce: The 924 was a sports car (a cheap, slow and badly made one, but still) being made by a sports car manufacturer. How is that destroying the brand?

In reply to mazdeuce:

The 924/944/968 and 928 were slated to move the company in a new direction away from the 912 and 911. The 911 wonks raised up and killed that plan, so Porsche had to eventually shoulder building the 924S, 944, 928 and 911 variants while the costs to import the cars rose significantly.

Once again the sales of the 911 weren't enough to keep the company as profitable as once was (or as much as they wanted it to be) and they looked at ways to diversify the brand and that meant dipping into the shared company parts and platforms. Annoying, but they did produce vehicles that were capable of being surprisingly sporty and that led to enough profits to build the Carrera GT and 918 along with even more special 911 variants that the drooling 911 fanatics buy up in droves.

BTW, I firmly believe the RX-7 was produced to compete with the 924 (it was produced 2 years after the 924 arrived, the rotary motor was already being used in the RX-3) and if you look at standard development times, you'd see that the styling could have very easily have been tailored to better align it with the 924, especially with the timing between when the 924 was first engineered, dropped by VW and picked up by Porsche, etc.

When the 924 was updated into the 944, so was the RX-7, again with similar styling. It wasn't until the final iteration that the RX-7 went completely its own way with styling (and to great effect) as the 944 morphed into the 968 before finally dying off.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

Yup, they don't sell sports cars anymore, just the image. Read up on the steering feel (or lack thereof) in the latest 911 to learn more.

.... anybody want a PCA approved 1984 911???

GameboyRMH wrote: Porsche is running on rich playboys' fanboyism these days. That's why there's no H-pattern even as an option in the 911 GT3 RS. That's why they scuttled their plans for entry-level sports cars for fear of "damaging the brand." They want to sell expensive fashion statements to rich guys who see cars as a fashion accessory.

Calm yourself. There will almost assuredly be an H pattern in the GT3 RS. There is PDK only in the GT3.

That said... HAVE YOU DRIVEN PDK? It's 10000X better than an H pattern. It is the best transmission in existence.

I am sorry I went and looked at what the Porsche Macan looked like.

Porsche, you are dead to me

oldeskewltoy wrote: .... anybody want a PCA approved 1984 911???

WTF is "PCA Approval" ?!

and how would it be applied to a Jumped-up Beetle? and to what result?

oldeskewltoy wrote: .... anybody want a PCA approved 1984 911???

Pics please.

I posted the following on Pelican Parts forum where I found the original link. Predictably many are calling for Jack Baruth's head on a platter for doubting Porsche in any way, although just as many are still the die hard 'Porsche died with the 993 brigade

I think many people are missing the point of the article. I don’t see anything wrong with Porsche expanding their model lineup per-say. They still make sports cars, and much as people like to * and moan about water cooling, PDK, comfort and convenience I’d argue that the cars are selling to the same market place as they were 20-30-40 years ago. The price of entry (as in specification) is what had changed, meaning the car had to change too.

I think the biggest issue is what he refers to in the second half of the article, that is quality and maintenance costs. If you want to be a full service auto manufacturer (again, nothing wrong with that in concept) then you have to do it too the same standard as the rest of the market. Massively high service and parts costs, with subpar reliability on major components just isn’t going to wash on a $30k SUV. As Boxsters and 911’s (996 up) age, people will be willing to spend $1,000-2,000 replacing the RMS and IMS as a preventative measure, especially as these items are becoming more easily DIY’able, but people are not going to accept a $1,000-2,000 safety measure or a $5-15k engine replacement on a ten year old SUV that’s only worth $8-10k. People don’t buy old SUV’s to keep in the garage for weekend drives, track days and date nights with their significant other, they do with sports cars. People will live with a 10 year old SUV where some of the switches don’t work, or the nav system has failed, the seat heater has stopped working or heck the ABS and stability control has quit and the light is permanently on because they car still drive it too and from work. But major mechanical issues and super expensive repair costs that leave a vehicle inoperable will not be welcomed and will kill the company fast.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: Yup, they don't sell sports cars anymore, just the image. Read up on the steering feel (or lack thereof) in the latest 911 to learn more.

Seriously? Go drive one.

Sure, it isn't quite the reading-the-asphalt-as-though-it-were-braile experience that the the 997 steering was, but it's pretty damn good.

Don't believe me, here are some reviews -

Our own Lesley has stated that the 991 C4S has "Ruined her for other cars".

Motor Trend named the C4S as the 'Best Driver's Car', stating "It's like the difference between writing in cursive and printing." and "It urges you to beat on it." Ed Loh said it was "The most unstoppable, confidence-inspiring vehicle I've driven yet."

Quit your bitching, Porsche still builds sportscars.

In reply to Maroon92:

As a man who has driven nearly the entire Porsche history, I would think you would have been less forgiving of the 991. I haven't driven nearly the breadth or depth you have, but even I can tell the 991's steering is a fallow pig compared to anything else Porsche has ever made. When the stirring-a-bowl-of-mashed potatoes steering in my Javelin provides more feedback, you've berked something up.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I posted the following on Pelican Parts forum where I found the original link. Predictably many are calling for Jack Baruth's head on a platter for doubting Porsche in any way, although just as many are still the die hard 'Porsche died with the 993 brigade I think many people are missing the point of the article. I don’t see anything wrong with Porsche expanding their model lineup per-say. They still make sports cars, and much as people like to ***** and moan about water cooling, PDK, comfort and convenience I’d argue that the cars are selling to the same market place as they were 20-30-40 years ago. The price of entry (as in specification) is what had changed, meaning the car had to change too. I think the biggest issue is what he refers to in the second half of the article, that is quality and maintenance costs. If you want to be a full service auto manufacturer (again, nothing wrong with that in concept) then you have to do it too the same standard as the rest of the market. Massively high service and parts costs, with subpar reliability on major components just isn’t going to wash on a $30k SUV. As Boxsters and 911’s (996 up) age, people will be willing to spend $1,000-2,000 replacing the RMS and IMS as a preventative measure, especially as these items are becoming more easily DIY’able, but people are not going to accept a $1,000-2,000 safety measure or a $5-15k engine replacement on a ten year old SUV that’s only worth $8-10k. People don’t buy old SUV’s to keep in the garage for weekend drives, track days and date nights with their significant other, they do with sports cars. People will live with a 10 year old SUV where some of the switches don’t work, or the nav system has failed, the seat heater has stopped working or heck the ABS and stability control has quit and the light is permanently on because they car still drive it too and from work. But major mechanical issues and super expensive repair costs that leave a vehicle inoperable will not be welcomed and will kill the company fast.

I tend to disagree with you. Much like the Cayenne, Macan buyers will not keep these cars long enough to hit these problems. These issues will fall on the second and third owners of these vehicles.

Honestly, Porsche builds some very reliable engines these days (not the garbage they were pumping out in the early 2000s), and the engine in the Macan should be quite a reliable one. The turbo V6 is based off of the V8 that has been powering Cayenne since 2003.

If people can't accept a 1-2000 dollar repair on a 60-75K vehicle once in a while, then they have no business buying a 60-75K vehicle.

I think companies like Singer and pedigree resto-modders will continue to grow as rich dudes brag to one another about how even the most awesome modern Porsche doesn't compare to a 70's 911.

Javelin wrote: In reply to Maroon92: As a man who has driven nearly the entire Porsche history, I would think you would have been less forgiving of the 991. I haven't driven nearly the breadth or depth you have, but even I can tell the 991's steering is a fallow pig compared to anything else Porsche has ever made. When the stirring-a-bowl-of-mashed potatoes steering in my *Javelin* provides more feedback, you've berked something up.

Call me a Porsche-apologist if you want, but I didn't think it was that bad. The 981 Boxster/Cayman are some of the best cars I've driven. I think the steering is still better than the average sports car.

Car and Driver have called the Boxster a "holistic sports car experience", and claimed "if every car were a Cayman, we would achieve world peace".

They lauded the launch-control, called the steering wheel a "high-fidelity rheostat of joy", and their gorgeous appearance. With phrases like "you simply cannot find cars any more satisfying to operate than this duo", you know that the 981 chassis belongs on the 10Best list.

That's the same steering that you've said you hate...

I know modern Porsches are wonderful cars but I know if I was spending my money I would end up buying an air-cooled one.

Also, I've heard Jack Baruth is a great guy in person (never met him), but I cannot stand the "Sky is falling" variety of writing he does at TTAC. The stuff he writes for Road and Track tends to be phenomenal... Perhaps they keep him on a shorter chain.