Porsche rant in TTAC

Maroon92 wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: Yup, they don't sell sports cars anymore, just the image. Read up on the steering feel (or lack thereof) in the latest 911 to learn more.

Seriously? Go drive one. Sure, it isn't quite the reading-the-asphalt-as-though-it-were-braile experience that the the 997 steering was, but it's pretty damn good. Don't believe me, here are some reviews - Our own Lesley has stated that the 991 C4S has "Ruined her for other cars". Motor Trend named the C4S as the 'Best Driver's Car', stating "It's like the difference between writing in cursive and printing." and "It urges you to beat on it." Ed Loh said it was "The most unstoppable, confidence-inspiring vehicle I've driven yet." Quit your bitching, Porsche still builds sportscars.

They might still build sports cars, but they don't build them consistently better than the outgoing model anymore. Which was kinda Porsche's thing, gradually improving things. Much like the decline of Mercedes Benz cars in the early 90s, going from the most mechanically elegant things I've ever seen, to a gizmo packed car that ages like a period Cadillac. Porsche is no longer an engineering company, but a financial one.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: They might still build sports cars, but they don't build them consistently better than the outgoing model anymore.

...said every brand loyalist ever. :)

berkeley Bangle.

187Neon wrote:

Maroon92 wrote: In reply to 187Neon: I've mostly been steering clear of TTAC for a while, simply because it doesn't pique my interest, but hey, opinions are like a-holes, right?

We don't need everybody to read TTAC in order to pay the bills. We just need ALMOST EVERYBODY to read it. Come on, people, I'm in the middle of trying to buy a Grand Caravan master cylinder for my race car here!

You guys are at least more readable and answer more to your readers/customers (even if that answer is, "NO!") than Jalopnik (The TMZ of automotive "journalism" IMO) could ever dream of.

mad_machine wrote: I am sorry I went and looked at what the Porsche Macan looked like. Porsche, you are dead to me

Just did the same. It's like the panamera made it with that little land rover SUV thingy. I kinda like it and definitely look forward to pillaging parts from them in the yard in a decade.

bluej wrote:

mad_machine wrote: I am sorry I went and looked at what the Porsche Macan looked like. Porsche, you are dead to me

Just did the same. It's like the panamera made it with that little land rover SUV thingy. I kinda like it and definitely look forward to pillaging parts from them in the yard in a decade.

Yeah, the wife is actually interested in one. Not that we could afford it, but the thought of having a Porsche filled driveway and a happy Wife is a dream come true at this point.

The recent Porsche thing that amazes me is how many of the 911 are over $100k. The thing that appeals to me about a 911 is the usability, it is like a super fast super refined GTI - sporty and practical. But once you cross the $100K line I just feel like you should expect 48 valves and some cachet - Astons, Ferraris, Lambos, etc... I think Maseratis have more cachet and relatively speaking they don't seem to be priced in the stratosphere. Yes someone will tell me I have to drive a RS to understand, but for that money I want more style than a squished bug.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: They might still build sports cars, but they don't build them consistently better than the outgoing model anymore. Which was kinda Porsche's thing, gradually improving things.

How is the 991 not better than the 997 it replaces? The 981 Boxster/Cayman are MILES better than the 987 twins.

Maroon92 wrote: How is the 991 not better than the 997 it replaces? The 981 Boxster/Cayman are MILES better than the 987 twins.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts about this, because I'd take a 987 over a 981 every single day, even without the Cayman R goodies.

187Neon wrote:

Maroon92 wrote: How is the 991 not better than the 997 it replaces? The 981 Boxster/Cayman are MILES better than the 987 twins.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts about this, because I'd take a 987 over a 981 every single day, even without the Cayman R goodies.

I'll confess "MILES" is probably an overstatement, but I do think the 981 is better than the 987, and the Cayman R/Boxster Spyder are otherworldly.

From my point of view, the 981 is visually more striking, it is more comfortable, it FEELS higher quality from the materials to the ride. It performs better, and not just on paper, but feels faster from a 'seat of the pants' perspective. How can anyone balk at 1.2G in the corners? Not that long ago, there were supercars that couldn't do that.

My only gripe (as an underpaid and overworked plebian) is that it is too expensive. I'd love a flat 4 version with about 200 horsepower priced under 40 (never gonna happen).

Kenny_McCormic wrote: They might still build sports cars, but they don't build them consistently better than the outgoing model anymore. Which was kinda Porsche's thing, gradually improving things.

Indeed. One of the things I like(d) about Porsche is the conservative design philosophy. Changes are made only if an improvement is necessary. But then...

Much like the decline of Mercedes Benz cars in the early 90s, going from the most mechanically elegant things I've ever seen, to a gizmo packed car that ages like a period Cadillac.

You can probably blame Toyota and Nissan for that one. When Toyota built a better S-class than Mercedes, for a lot less money, you could probably hear the bricks landing in toilets in Germany.

Porsche is no longer an engineering company, but a financial one.

Porsche as "engineering firm that sold cars as a showcase of their engineering prowess" is the best reason I can think of why they kept screwing around with the 911 rather than continuing to develop the 928 properly. "Hey look, we build a car that is a combination of the worst concepts ever, and our engineers have polished that turd into a world beating car! Just think what we can do for YOU"

(disclaimer: I do think AC911s are spiffy, and the driving experience is wonderful, but JEEZ. Put the core concept on paper and it looks like something you'd come up with as a joke)

Maroon92 wrote: I'd love a flat 4 version with about 200 horsepower priced under 40 (never gonna happen).

What's the sticker on a BRZ? You could probably buy a lot of tires for the $10k in change.

I know, I know, you can't make orange juice with apples. But remember the last time Porsche tried to sell a four cylinder version of, well, anything? (I am going to count the 914 vs. 914/6 as an anomaly given the screwing-over VW gave Porsche)

One of our RX-7 group members has a newish Cayman. IIRC, the options alone came to almost half the price of the car. Everything is available as an option. He (wisely) ordered everything that would be a pain to install after the fact. For example, he pointed out that the interior lighting package has to be built into the wiring harness, so you can't just add that in. But leather espresso machine buttons on the gilt-edged woodburning stove in the rear console? That can be picked up at a later date.

Knurled wrote: But remember the last time Porsche tried to sell a four cylinder version of, well, anything? (I am going to count the 914 vs. 914/6 as an anomaly given the screwing-over VW gave Porsche)

FYI, Porsche sold four cylinder cars for nearly 50 years, from 1948 all the way through 1995: 356, 912, 914, 924, 944 & 968. These cars are a substantial part of the company's road car lineage.

Four cylinder version, meaning sub-class of an existing car. The only two examples I can think of were the 912 and 914. I am not sure I'd say the 924/944 was a four cylinder 928, the cars were significantly different. (And the 912 can almost be thought of as a continuation of the 356... IIRC its drivetrain was more or less straight outta 356C, just in a Porsche shell and not a worked-over Type 1)

Point being, the expense is not so much in the engine as it is in the rest of the car, and the cars can be optioned up to ridiculous expense. Flip side is, that's part of the appeal.

This thread has me wanting to sell the GTI and hunt down a 924. It'd be easier to fit an Audi five into a 924 than into the GTI.

Knurled wrote:

Much like the decline of Mercedes Benz cars in the early 90s, going from the most mechanically elegant things I've ever seen, to a gizmo packed car that ages like a period Cadillac.

You can probably blame Toyota and Nissan for that one. When Toyota built a better S-class than Mercedes, for a lot less money, you could probably hear the bricks landing in toilets in Germany.

Porsche is no longer an engineering company, but a financial one.

Porsche as "engineering firm that sold cars as a showcase of their engineering prowess" is the best reason I can think of why they kept screwing around with the 911 rather than continuing to develop the 928 properly. "Hey look, we build a car that is a combination of the worst concepts ever, and our engineers have polished that turd into a world beating car! Just think what we can do for YOU" (disclaimer: I do think AC911s are spiffy, and the driving experience is wonderful, but JEEZ. Put the core concept on paper and it looks like something you'd come up with as a joke)

I think of it more as the LS400 being what the W140 SHOULD have been, the LS came out before the 140, MB didnt really have much of an excuse.

I fully agree, and they finally met that goal, finally made the 911 tame, and that ruined it.

When VW Group has published its sales financials for the first half of 2013, some back-of-the-envelope math yielded these tidbits: while VW profited about $830 per car, Audi made $5,000 per car, but Porsche profited more than $22,000 per car sold. So it’s no great secret why WV bosses are pushing Porsche to bring the Macan to market and to target 200,000 auto sales per year - Porsche is the company’s gravy train.

It's not that Porsche can't price its cars lower, or build a less expensive variant because there's so much engineering in the car... it's because as long as lines of consumers are willing to pay stupid-high MSRPs, VW Executives see zero need to do so.

nderwater wrote:

Knurled wrote: But remember the last time Porsche tried to sell a four cylinder version of, well, anything? (I am going to count the 914 vs. 914/6 as an anomaly given the screwing-over VW gave Porsche)

FYI, Porsche sold four cylinder cars for nearly 50 years, from 1948 all the way through 1995: 356, 912, 914, 924, 944 & 968. These cars are a substantial part of the company's road car lineage.

The last time there was a "4 cylinder version" of an existing car, the 912E, was 1976. They only sold just over 2000 of them, but it was a special car for the North American market, and they sold every single one they made.

The 912, when it was first introduced in 1965, outsold the 911 by almost 3 times in the first couple of years. As the 911 introduced more variants, however, it started to eclipse 912 sales. They still sold heavily in 1969, though.

The 914-4, until the introduction of the 924 was THE MOST SUCCESSFUL car in Porsches history. They sold 20,000 of those little buggers.

A "budget" Porsche has always been their best seller.

I would love to see 4cyl Porsche again. Unfortunately as explained in a previous TTAC article 4cyl's are essentially a "compromise". Anyway I have nothing against them but do agree there is a level of prestige associated with 6+cyl motors. BTW Jack, Keep up the great work! Always enjoy reading your articles.

" Let me clearly delineate the hierarchy of common gasoline-burning engine designs for those of you who are new to this, from best and most admirable to least interesting:

Gas turbine a la Chrysler experimental V-16 V-12 Straight-eight Straight-six V-8 Boxer six

The Sea Of Despair across which manufacturers travel when cost, regulations, or packaging considerations make it necessary. Above this line are things you want to drive, below it are compromises.

Boxer four V-6 Inline four Inline three" http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/10/avoidable-contact-return-of-the-mack/

Anyway I still dream of Porsche re-issuing a 964 (or maybe earlier model) with a turbo subaru flat 4, modern amenities (airbags, hid's, abs, traction control0 and calling it Carrera Classic or something silly and selling it for ~$40k. Just dig out the old body stampings and make sure its safe.

Followed the link, prepared to be impressed, and found a major factual error in the "1987 Toyota anology" right out of the box. By 87, the Supra had zero in common with the Celica. Zip, zero, nada, zilch. It was on its own dedicated RWD platform while the Celica had gone FWD (Corolla derived, I believe) by '86.

That said, there's a lot of truth in that article underneath the hyperbole. A 911 or Boxster that started disintegrating at 50k miles was generally forgiven because it was a weekend toy car that was 10 years old by the time it got to that mileage, probably on its second or third owner. Many of the original buyers of the Macan are going to have 3 years left on a loan at 50k miles. If those are falling apart at that time, and have commensurate resale value, the sting is going to hurt a lot more. The negative perception those people form about the brand will eventually infect the total public perception of even the sports cars.

187Neon wrote: There are maybe three more holes in my driveway that SHOULD be filled with great new Porsches but aren't. It makes me sad. I'll probably wind up buying a 997 GT3, ...

Do it quickly, as the market for them continues to go up. The 7.2 GT3 I bought a year ago is worth more now as word has spread of the 991 GT3 "horrors". :)

I gotta agree with the article. Used to be the Germans had a reputation for building solid vehicles with excellent engineering, now they are coasting on that rep and are wearing profit driven blinders while building pure crap, in that respect Porsche is no different from VW, Mercedes and to a lesser extent BMW.

Those 'down the road, not our problem it's out of warranty' owners should be viewed as entry level owners. Honestly, how many people buy a brand new example of a Porsche as their first experience with the marque? Answer: not many. The great majority buy a used one first, to have a first experience where said car has major failures at relatively low mileage and age is pretty much guaranteed to have this person strongly reconsidering another no matter how good the driving experience. That's a lot of what killed the British car industry.

Curmudgeon wrote: Those 'down the road, not our problem it's out of warranty' owners should be viewed as entry level owners. Honestly, how many people buy a brand new example of a Porsche as their first experience with the marque? Answer: not many. The great majority buy a used one first, to have a first experience where said car has major failures at relatively low mileage and age is pretty much guaranteed to have this person strongly reconsidering another no matter how good the driving experience. That's a lot of what killed the British car industry.

I don't have any numbers to back that up, but I would guess that the majority of Panamera owners are first time Porsche buyers. Probably the same with the Cayenne. I know a lot of owners who have never had a Porsche before, but step into a GT3 or a Speedster or something.

DanyloS wrote: I would love to see 4cyl Porsche again. Unfortunately as explained in a previous TTAC article 4cyl's are essentially a "compromise". Anyway I have nothing against them but do agree there is a level of prestige associated with 6+cyl motors. BTW Jack, Keep up the great work! Always enjoy reading your articles. _ _ _ _ _ _ " Let me clearly delineate the hierarchy of common gasoline-burning engine designs for those of you who are new to this, from best and most admirable to least interesting: Gas turbine a la Chrysler experimental V-16 V-12 Straight-eight Straight-six V-8 Boxer six The Sea Of Despair across which manufacturers travel when cost, regulations, or packaging considerations make it necessary. Above this line are things you want to drive, below it are compromises. Boxer four V-6 Inline four Inline three" http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/10/avoidable-contact-return-of-the-mack/ _ _ _ _ Anyway I still dream of Porsche re-issuing a 964 (or maybe earlier model) with a turbo subaru flat 4, modern amenities (airbags, hid's, abs, traction control0 and calling it Carrera Classic or something silly and selling it for ~$40k. Just dig out the old body stampings and make sure its safe.

He makes some good points.

5 years ago I would have said the chances of another 4cyl Porsche were zero. A V6 had become standard fair in your average C/D class sedan, no way would Porsche gone below that for a 'PORSCHE' But with the plethora of 4cyl turbo DI engines replacing 6's as the volume engine I can see it happening, but not soon and not in the U.S. for a long time. It will happen in Europe first just so the GRM faithful can complain for 5 years that we don't get the good cars here. It's going to take a lot longer for Americans to accept a 4cyl Porsche than the Europeans. Yes this continent has a short memory. 99% of people have already forgotten the 924/44/68/51 range of cars and even 80's nostalgaiets only remember there was a Red Porsche in 16 Candles, not that it was a 1984 944.

One area where my European upbringing shows through is that I disagree on his damnation of the V6. Personaly V6's are one of my favorite engine combo's I love the sound they make. I love my neighbors VR6 R32, I loved my SVT Countour, I love the sound of 350/370Z's, I really dig my last two V6 Mustangs and I for one love the 6R4/XJR race cars and would dearly love to add an XJ220 to my lotto winning stable.

I used to be enamored of Porsche, especially growing up. Then I drove a 911 SC and I hated it. I didn't see what everyone raves about. The ergonomics were out of the 1960's, it didn't particularly have good power, suspension and brakes were ok. I bought a 944 turbo instead.

Then I thought a 996 would be nice, until all the massive engine problems came to light.

Since I can't afford a 997 GT3 RS like my friends (which he did let me drive and I WANT ONE!) it's all dreams for now.

However when I look at the 991, I'm not excited by it. There are few cars Porsche currently makes that I'd replace my LS1 powered 944 with. Unless I win the lottery and can get a 997.2 GT3 RS, I'll stick with my 948...

While I don't believe that the mas market Porsche's directly subsidize the sports cars, they do cover a lot of the cost for developing the technology that allows Porsche sports cars to remain relevant to the vast majority of potential buyers vs their direct competitors. This is what has allowed Porche to finally catch up in an area that they were seriously lacking for a number of years, and could (would?) have eventually put them out of business because of it. These days, far too few people would have been willing to drop Porsche money for a sports car still lacking the interior quality and technological features of a decent economy car. Don't kid yourself, the singular purpose and goal of ANY successful company is to make money. Period. If 'diluting' the brand a bit accomplishes this and gives their cars more widespread appeal, even at the sacrifice of small handful of diehard traditionalists who only desire cars with very limited appeal, then it's ultimately going to be a wise business decision to do so...Especially if they also keep cranking out enough 'enthusiast' models to maintain their primary brand image in the public's eyes.

187Neon wrote: We don't need everybody to read TTAC in order to pay the bills. We just need ALMOST EVERYBODY to read it.

You guys run a pretty good site. I read it every day.

My wife loved the idea of a Harrier Lexus.

While it is certainly Porsche's goal to make money and please their shareholders they have to see what going after the short term dollars can do to a car company. Unlike GM and their Sloan plan, which tried to get as many cars into the hands of the public as possible, Porsche's entire business is based on their cachet as a sports car company. Lexus ate Mercedes Benz's lunch and they haven't recovered. If Toyota decides to stay in the performance business and improve the IS-F, they might do the same to Porsche.