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BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim UltimaDork
1/19/15 11:09 p.m.

Is it worth paying the seemingly considerable premium for a 2nd generation RX8 (2009 on, they're really hard to find) or will a 1st gen do nicely, too, if I pick up a good 'un.

Main reason for the question is that Carmax has a low mileage 2009 on the other side of the country and if I would do a trade with my Evo, the trade value on the Evo would be a little sweeter on the deal. However, for the money they're asking for the RX8 I can get another 996...

Jaynen
Jaynen Dork
1/19/15 11:39 p.m.

Mechanically I dont know what changed but I do like the bodykit they added near the end

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim UltimaDork
1/19/15 11:48 p.m.

IIRC the big mechanical change was that they replaced the Aisin 6-speed with a Mazda one that is supposedly stronger.

OTOH some of the sensible track mods like upgraded radiators don't necessarily appear to be available for the 2009-on models.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
1/19/15 11:50 p.m.

The 09+ has a lot of little important changes that make it drive like a completely different car. A lot like the 996 to 997 generation come to think of it...

SnowMongoose
SnowMongoose Dork
1/20/15 1:07 a.m.

The question is, are those 'little important changes' worth the extra moneys?

Mazdax605
Mazdax605 SuperDork
1/20/15 4:54 a.m.
SnowMongoose wrote: The question is, are those 'little important changes' worth the extra moneys?

Yes!

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke Dork
1/20/15 6:42 a.m.

If it were me I'd just get a nice 1st gen. For your intended purpose they are much cheaper which leaves lots of money for mods/entry fees/consumables.

CGLockRacer
CGLockRacer SuperDork
1/20/15 7:37 a.m.

S2 RX-8 engines have a completely different oiling system (more oil ports for rotors), higher oil pressure, different Mazda built transmission (more robust), different gearing, revised rear suspension, and some other changes. The R3 adds some interior changes (Recaros), and suspension (Bilsteins), body and wheel options. PM me your email and I can send you the spec sheets with the changes from S1 to S2.

Harvey
Harvey HalfDork
1/20/15 8:47 a.m.

I would pay a little more, but I would not pay a lot more for a 2nd gen because at some point they are going to be dirt cheap like the 1st gen and that will probably happen while you own it.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim UltimaDork
1/20/15 11:11 a.m.

If I put some numbers to it - I can get a reasonable to very nice (even low mileage) S1 out here for between $6k and $9k, pre-haggles. I've seen very few S2s available for sale anywhere, and most of the ones that looked like they were worth having are in the mid-teens range.

I could afford a mid-teens car, I'm just not necessarily stoked about tracking it. At that point I would have to become my only trackable car, but I'd be OK with that.

For example, this is one of the nicest S1 RX8s that a quick CL search brought to my attention - yes, it's expensive for an early S1 but if it's as nice as it is described I may be willing to pay almost that much:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/4852764180.html

This is the nice low mileage S2 I found at Carmax - keep in mind I also have to pay for the transfer:

http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=10832342&AVi=5&No=0&Rp=R&D=90&zip=89511&N=4294963205+4294963204&Q=9cbd4a47-c1f0-40d1-9988-3c8587507c34&Ep=search:results:results%20page

The price for the S2 isn't that far out of line for local-ish ones, there are only a handful for sale in the usual places I check (LA, Bay Area, Portland, OR, Seattle) and most of them are with dealers, which means having to pay sales tax (I don't have to pay sales tax on a private car purchase when registering in NV, but I do have to pay if I buy from a dealer).

singleslammer
singleslammer UltraDork
1/20/15 11:18 a.m.

Those are screwy laws. I am assuming that you know about the sunroof and leather seat issue, right?

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim UltimaDork
1/20/15 11:27 a.m.

I do know about that issue, which is why that S2 appeals. OTOH I have a pair of Recaro SPGs that I can drop into the RX8 (or if I want to go fancy adjustable, I'd probably get a Bride) and supposedly that would take care of the headroom issue.

I've driven a leather/sunroof equipped S1 and I may just about have enough headroom to wear a helmet with the stock seats, although it'd be tight as usual and I might get a smack on the head or two.

And for even more screwy law fun, if I want to buy a car in CA from a dealer, I have a choice of getting it transported (at a price) over here to pay the lower NV sales tax, or if I want to drive it home, I have to pay CA sales tax. Oddly enough I tend to stick to private sales for cheaper cars.

amg_rx7
amg_rx7 SuperDork
1/20/15 11:39 a.m.

For a track car, I'd stick to the cheaper option. Murphy's Law and all that.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
1/20/15 11:39 a.m.

One thing you should look into for a low mileage S1 is the motor self-destruction issues (maybe just first few years?). A low mileage one may be a grenade but has not yet gotten to that point yet (as case where low mileage is bad?). A friend had his blow at around 60,000 (replaced with warranty motor).

Not sure, someone else can comment.

JtspellS
JtspellS SuperDork
1/20/15 12:10 p.m.

One of the things that you would run in to between the 2 is the S1 has a very good aftermarket for performance parts, while a good amount can be used on the S2 it's not everything. The S1 trans has issues with prolonged time trial/track time, and I would be much more religious about pre-mix with an S1 prior to any event (autocross included)

Long and short the S1 with an S2 trans for a race car and S2 for more autocross/weekend car duty.

JtspellS
JtspellS SuperDork
1/20/15 12:12 p.m.

Also if you are looking for power mods you are spending easily the amount of the car on a conversion to a 20b or boost.

RX Reven'
RX Reven' Dork
1/20/15 12:17 p.m.

My 2005 RX-8 celebrated its ninth birthday last Sunday with 226K miles on its odometer.

It’s in the shop now receiving its first transmission work…throw out bearing is toast, do the clutch, pilot bearing, and resurface the flywheel while you’re in there.

Anyway, the transmission on my FC RX-7 was clearly a weak point…several clutches and bearings over the years and at around 200K miles, the gears went prompting me to get a replacement from a Pick-Your-Part. Additionally, it made weird sounds and just didn’t “feel” very solid throughout its 286K mile life.

My RX-8 is nothing like that, right up to needing work a few weeks ago, it has always performed, sounded, and felt perfect.

YMMV but in my tiny sample size of one, the transmission in my first gen RX-8 has been excellent so I wouldn’t be willing to pay a premium for something else.

BTW, I imagine the current low gas prices aren’t helping the availability or pricing on RX-8’s.

RX Reven'
RX Reven' Dork
1/20/15 12:31 p.m.
JtspellS wrote: The S1 trans has issues with prolonged time trial/track time

Good point JtSpellS,

I should clarify that my RX-8 is a daily driver with a very occasional Auto Cross thrown in here and there.

Knurled
Knurled UltimaDork
1/20/15 12:42 p.m.

The question is not if a series 2 is worth the extra money, the question is why would you waste time/money cheaping out with getting a series 1.

Given the desirability and relative scarcity of the S2, I don't think they will depreciate very much. FDs sure as heck didn't.

RX Reven'
RX Reven' Dork
1/20/15 12:54 p.m.
aircooled wrote: A friend had his blow at around 60,000 (replaced with warranty motor).

Now, now, it was at 84,000 miles thank you very much.

When it happened, I got a call from someone fairly high up at Mazda with “West Coast” in his title and he just came right out and said “look, you’re getting a new engine, now, tell me exactly what happened”.

Hehehe

fidelity101
fidelity101 SuperDork
1/20/15 1:58 p.m.
Mazdax605 wrote:
SnowMongoose wrote: The question is, are those 'little important changes' worth the extra moneys?
Yes!

QFT. Basically all of the things you hated/heard about in the s1 were fixed in the s2. But I think the s1 cloth seats are nicer and both leather seats are pretty terrible unless you get 40th aniv or R3 recaros.

Trackmouse
Trackmouse Reader
1/20/15 2:02 p.m.

Don't forget rebuilding the engine. (An eventuality) rotaries are way more To have rebuilt. It's why I sold my first gen.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim UltimaDork
1/20/15 4:32 p.m.

I've owned an FB, and FC and an FD, all with hair dryers strapped to the engines so yeah, I'm vaguely aware of the need for rebuilds. That said, I think the factory reman Mazda engine is less than $5k and compared to most of what I've got parked around here that's not that bad.

I'm not looking for massive power boosts on it, just some optimization of what's there. So I don't expect to do anything nuts to it unless I decide to rebuild the engine . And yes, I'm aware that if I wanted to strap a hair dryer to the engine I'd be better off starting with an FD.

Regarding the rarity/desirability factor of an S2, I agree that it's at least rarer, but that's not helping if I stick it in the tire wall. Plus as mentioned, only about half to 2/3rds of the tuning parts seem to carry over from the S1 to the S2...

Of course one of the advantages of the S2 is that they'll mostly still have an engine warranty, although there's the usual problem of proving the service history. Anybody know if the Mazda considers the engine warranty void if the car ends up on the "right" side of the pit wall?

Mazdax605
Mazdax605 SuperDork
1/20/15 5:05 p.m.
Trackmouse wrote: Don't forget rebuilding the engine. (An eventuality) rotaries are way more To have rebuilt. It's why I sold my first gen.

I don't agree with this opinion.

fidelity101
fidelity101 SuperDork
1/20/15 5:12 p.m.

The only power mod I think you would "need/can" do on an s2 is remove the cat. but keep it handy just incase it needs to be installed again. Nobody really builds rotaries or makes them, just mazda. From my experience, just follow what the creators did, they seem to have gotten it pretty good in comparison to aftermarket companies and have a hell of a lot more resources.

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