Quickest/Easiest four cylinder at 350 hp for typical challenge motor money

tuna55 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

tuna55 wrote: OK, let's do this: For each of these, what is required to get near or past the 350 HP level. Assuming I weld all exhaust stuff from scrap mandrels and scrounge for junk/used turbos. What is required of the short block? What is the easiest (on a challenge budget) engine management? How close to the edge of hard parts (pistons, rods, etc) are we at this level? What kind of availability are we talking about (The ecotec LSJ is a good starting point, but there is really no way to get into one on a challenge budget)? Mazda KL Ecotec Mazda F2T 4G63T 2.2 Dodge 2.4 Dodge

Speaking to the two that i'm most familiar with, the mazda motors... The F2T is the "easy button." 350whp might be rough to do, simply because of characteristics of the motor itself. (Not the greatest head flow, intake manifold runners too long, etc) However, over 300whp is cake, and it WILL come with over 400wtq. F2T is way faster than HP would suggest. Anyways, to answer your questions: F2T: Leave shortblock stock, it's fine. Couple different options for tuning. Megasquirt, HKS PFC Fcon if you can find one, RX7 460s + FMU setup, or 370-390cc injectors on stock ecu with a hacked VAF. You'd probably want at least a 60trim turbo if you're worried about 350whp. Otherwise... just put something big on it. It'll spool an HX35 without sweating, for example. The motor will not be stressed at this level with a good tune. I actually don't know of ONE F2T that has ever blown up due to too much power. They fail because of bad tuning or lack of maintenance. Availability is decent, there's quite a few Probe GTs in the junkyards. MAKE SURE YOU GRAB THE TRANS TO GO WITH IT. Mazda KL: Leave short block alone again. Big gains to be had porting the heads, though. You'll want to go Megasquirt for sure. 350whp is near the edge of the KL, but seriously... a 300-325whp KL is going to be nutso-fast. Availability is great, at least locally. I can go to either of my self-service yards and have my choice of at least 3-4 on any given day, for $150-$175, trans is another $50.

I still like these options because I can get them at any nearby wrecking yard. F2t vs KL, though. Is the V6 really lighter? I'd obviously have a bunch more turbo plumbing. Which is easier to control? You say they are both close to 350, which is closer? What breaks first on which? What kind of boost are we talking on each?

I would say the V6 is lighter for sure. It's all aluminum, i'm actually saving a bunch of weight in my escort stuffing in a KL in place of the 1.8 BP that was in there.

Yes, it will have more turbo plumbing, but i was also assuming the use of the stock cast iron manifold on the F2T.

It's hard to tell which is truly stressed more at 350whp, because 350whp is a weird spot for the F2T. The big difference is that at 350whp, the F2T will make an easy 100 more wtq. It also won't rev as high, the powerband will be completely and utterly violent.

I would say the F2T would be easier to tune, it's more "friendly."

The KL, the rods will go first. The F2T.... you'd probably lift the head off the block before anything actually went in it, assuming a good tune. The F2T is prone to failure due to detonation, it has Hyperpeutic pistons. Don't detonate, and it'll be fine.

The KL will make more power on same boost as F2T. The F2T will handle FAR more boost than the KL will, though. It's a crap shoot.

347whp, 459wtq @ 27psi on a T4 50trim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MdRsu5ZA6M

I would suggest a bigger turbo, but either way, you'll be pushing more pressure on the F2T. That said... i also know of some tricks that could bring that number down some, and give a more friendly curve. F2T + bigger turbo hits with all the sublety of getting rear-ended by a mack truck. They're BRUTAL motors.

Oh yeah, motor in that video is 100% stock and never opened. Original head studs, gasket, internals, cam, everything. It even had 234k kilometers on it at time of dyno.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

That F2T sounds like a nice idea at this point. I like simple plumbing, less stuff and easy.

I am amazed at these power numbers because my turbobrick at 18 psi and a 16T was probably only putting down about 250 hp, although that was all off-the-shelf easy stuff as ancillaries.

Running a bit of ethanol in the tank is way easier than buying new rods, too.

I am now envisioning the F2T with a Holset and a 3K dump at the dragstrip. I like brutal, brutal and I are quite good buds.

The very very common in junkyards FWD Volvo 5 banger with stock internals has made 350 hp at the crank for people who know what they are doing. The manual trans from the non turbo cars bolts right up. They weigh around 350 lbs- It is a very compact package and the trans is cable actuated. The rods are the weak link, and people blow the motors up when they stick with the small mitsu (15g 16t 18t 19t ) turbos and set-up for too much boost too soon. volvospeed has lots of tips on making good power out of them, and many threads on people blowing them up. 300+ hp and close to 400 ftlbs is very achievable cheap.

tuna55 wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: That F2T sounds like a nice idea at this point. I like simple plumbing, less stuff and easy. I am amazed at these power numbers because my turbobrick at 18 psi and a 16T was probably only putting down about 250 hp, although that was all off-the-shelf easy stuff as ancillaries. Running a bit of ethanol in the tank is way easier than buying new rods, too. I am now envisioning the F2T with a Holset and a 3K dump at the dragstrip. I like brutal, brutal and I are quite good buds.

Simple is pretty much the mantra of these motors... incredibly easy to work on, they don't break. Tuning them is laughably simple with the low compression they have.

Honestly, i'll be testing another brainchild i had somewhat shortly. I took out my chipped 440cc ECU because the timing advance scared me. I'm going to throw it back in and see how it does at around 20psi + some meth to keep the ignition advance safe. No megasquirt necessary.

Now just so i don't sound like a huge fanboy... There's no clear winner in this comparison.

I like 4g63s a lot, but demand is pretty high for them.

F2T from what i've noticed, is happy as hell at those power levels. Combine holset, big injectors, some sort of tuning, and you've got a motor that will do 400 all day long. I'm absolutely gobsmacked at how strong these are (This coming from a guy born to be a DSM person)

I think the highest dyno'd power to date was 376whp. I can also think of at least 3 cars off the top of my head that should have made more than that if they were ever dyno'd.

I've got a buddy that was running a Holset HE351VE on his to over 30psi, and that's a LARGE turbo.

HX40 setups are common, and the damn thing will actually spool it.

I didn't say I'd use a motor from an SRT4 or PT turbo. I said I'd use a Stratus or PT 2.4 (non-turbo, nearly free) with SRT4/pt turbo rods and pistons. It shouldn't be tooo hard to build one for $400-500. Megasquirt it. I pontificated about using a neon because that's what I'd do... not because I cared if you used one. I

tuna55 wrote:

Ranger50 wrote:

tuna55 wrote: I get your pick, now as for the rest of the questions...?

I wouldn't be worrying about it. There are more then enough of them to go around if you blow it up. Kinda of like the old 5.0's. You could make 550hp all day long with a pair of twins and if it broke, you just went and got another for some Benjamins, and went on with life until it blew up again.

Those PT turbo motors and SRT4 motors are pricey, I cannot find them in the local junkyard, and we still have not discussed how to control them in a swap. They are rotting on the vine at the moment.

njansenv wrote: I didn't say I'd use a motor from an SRT4 or PT turbo. I said I'd use a Stratus or PT 2.4 (non-turbo, nearly free) with SRT4/pt turbo rods and pistons. It shouldn't be tooo hard to build one for $400-500.

Interesting, I had not realized that...

tuna55 wrote:

njansenv wrote: I didn't say I'd use a motor from an SRT4 or PT turbo. I said I'd use a Stratus or PT 2.4 (non-turbo, nearly free) with SRT4/pt turbo rods and pistons. It shouldn't be tooo hard to build one for $400-500.

Interesting, I had not realized that...

Do some reading on oil pump failures before you commit. I know a number of people who had 2.4 cars that ran amazingly fast...until the cast oil pump gears failed and the motor ran on no oil pressure.

Pat wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

njansenv wrote: I didn't say I'd use a motor from an SRT4 or PT turbo. I said I'd use a Stratus or PT 2.4 (non-turbo, nearly free) with SRT4/pt turbo rods and pistons. It shouldn't be tooo hard to build one for $400-500.

Interesting, I had not realized that...

Do some reading on oil pump failures before you commit. I know a number of people who had 2.4 cars that ran amazingly fast...until the cast oil pump gears failed and the motor ran on no oil pressure.

Thanks for the heads up. I would also like to solicit your advice on a few other tidbits regarding the 2.2 that you seem to be a bit familiar with. Engine management? Stock short block? Turbo choice?

I'd like to throw in that the Nissan QR25 is capable of 300 whp on 9 psi of boost and can probably be found in lots of wrecked Altima's.

Proof

Mine has been measured at 270 whp on 6 psi of boost.

Shaun wrote: The very very common in junkyards FWD Volvo 5 banger with stock internals has made 350 hp at the crank for people who know what they are doing. The manual trans from the non turbo cars bolts right up. They weigh around 350 lbs- It is a very compact package and the trans is cable actuated. The rods are the weak link, and people blow the motors up when they stick with the small mitsu (15g 16t 18t 19t ) turbos and set-up for too much boost too soon. volvospeed has lots of tips on making good power out of them, and many threads on people blowing them up. 300+ hp and close to 400 ftlbs is very achievable cheap.

Around 420lbs dressed and wet. I love Volvo White blocks as much as the next guy (okay maybe a little more), but unless I was working with a car already equipped with said engine, I think it would be difficult to get the kind of power for challenge money. According to web-forum-lore, stock internals are good to 400 hp at the crank, I'd probably be going aftermarket rods and maybe pistons too for anything above 350. The best China rods (affordable) are a bit over $100 each.

If it were me, and the goal was affordable, light weight, power, I'd be all over an Ecotec.

There's the LS4 i.e. transverse-mounted 5.3l V8 out of the late model Grand Prix GXP, Monte Carlo SS, Impala SS, etc. I guess you're stuck with an autotragic if you went this route. Hell folks have been stuffing every GM V8 under the sun in the back of Fieros for years, how about whatever Aluminum blocked Gen III+ GM V8 and a Getrag 282... there problem solved.

• Lee

How do I find more info on this volvo white block?

Volvos litter the yards around here, and that might be fun in something like... a... chevette?

bigdaddylee82 wrote:

Shaun wrote: The very very common in junkyards FWD Volvo 5 banger with stock internals has made 350 hp at the crank for people who know what they are doing. The manual trans from the non turbo cars bolts right up. They weigh around 350 lbs- It is a very compact package and the trans is cable actuated. The rods are the weak link, and people blow the motors up when they stick with the small mitsu (15g 16t 18t 19t ) turbos and set-up for too much boost too soon. volvospeed has lots of tips on making good power out of them, and many threads on people blowing them up. 300+ hp and close to 400 ftlbs is very achievable cheap.

Around 420lbs dressed and wet. I love Volvo White blocks as much as the next guy (okay maybe a little more), but unless I was working with a car already equipped with said engine, I think it would be difficult to get the kind of power for challenge money. According to web-forum-lore, stock internals are good to 400 hp at the crank, I'd probably be going aftermarket rods and maybe pistons too for anything above 350. The best China rods (affordable) are a bit over $100 each. If it were me, and the goal was affordable, light weight, power, I'd be all over an Ecotec. There's the LS3 i.e. transverse-mounted 5.3l V8 out of the late model Grand Prix GXP, Monte Carlo SS, Impala SS, etc. I guess you're stuck with an autotragic if you went this route. Hell folks have been stuffing every GM V8 under the sun in the back of Fieros for years, how about whatever Aluminum blocked Gen III+ GM V8 and a Getrag 282... there problem solved. - Lee

Lee, thanks, but earlier in the thread I had rejected the LS series because the LS4 is a unicorn. Not readily available for challenge money yet plus the transmission issue.

As far as the Ecotec, I noted that there were only a few designations which were strong enough on the stock short block to last at this power level, and they are all too much money at this point. The rest need rods and pistons. I guess I could swap a la what is being suggested for the 2.4, but I'd rather leave the short block alone, especially if that option is available through different engine platforms.

tuna55 wrote: In reply to SVreX: Really? 300HP with a T3 turbo? That's intriguing. Did they come with sticks?

the thing to keep in mind is that the turbo dictates how much power can be made from any given motor by the volume of air it moves, true that one engine might be more efficient than another but in any given scenario you can only make X amount of power from X amount of air delivered air deliverd

and the T3 is a platfomr, it comes in many different sizes and flange configurations even different centersections, and wheels

a general rule fo thumb is to look at the lbs/min of a given turbo, my L28ET came with a T3 that flowed around 32 lbs/min, the most power that turbo is going to make is arond 320 (this is in no way precice but it's a close estimation) I most recently was running a T3O4E on that same motor which flows 51 lbs/min meaning my new theoretical max hp is around 510 hp, granted the L28ET is an old motor and not very efficient and there are otehr factors keeping it form making maximum hp but you get the idea

as for spoolup characteristics there is a formulae to heep you select a turbo based on peak VE and Knee in point but I read in my favorite mag recently thatone fo the big turbo companies has an online calculator now available

^You should.. uhh... give me a GRM hookup on that blown 3s you have for sale.

T3 is a flange, not a turbo.

Or more accurately said before me, it is a 'platform.'

alfadriver wrote: People have posted about the 2.3l Turbo in the T-bird/stang/Merkur being quite stout, too. I have no real knowledge of that engine. GM has published a book on how to make 1000hp from a Ecotec. Not exactly challenge freindly kind of mods, but it's reasonably capable. Oh, and the Maserati choice- I keep seeing Maserati Chryslers on E-bay for super cheap. Even if you just want the engine, it may be a good route for that engine. Good luck with it- good start to an interesting build thread.

The Maserati 2.2 DOHC is pretty rare, most had SOHC Turbo's w/auto's or Mistu 3.0L V-6's and autos.

RossD wrote:

Raze wrote:

alfadriver wrote: People have posted about the 2.3l Turbo in the T-bird/stang/Merkur being quite stout, too. I have no real knowledge of that engine.

Yeah but he was looking for a FWD application, the 2.3 (non T) were mated up FWD in manual format to the Tempo, so no FWD Ford trans would mate and take 350 HP, the best option is the Turbo Dodge IMO. Plus the Ford 2.3T weighs a ton, the head on that motor feels like it weighs as much as my entire Fiat's bottom end...

From my research, the 2.3 HSC in the Tempo is a straight 6 with two cylinders missing and doesn't share really share anything with the 2.3 Lima. The two 2.3 Limas I've dealt with had the dual bolt patterns at the top (near the head). One is the standard Lima bell (Xr4ti/Tbird/Stang) and the lower ones match the Kent/CVH/SPI/Zetec*. If a transaxle attached to one of these engines could hand 350hp then you could probably make a 2.3 Lima sideways; I can't comment on oiling though. *Later Zetecs had the starter located where a bellhousing bolt would have been on the normal Kent pattern.

1st Gen Escorts had the 1.8-2.0L CVH motor in them and there was a very rare turbo 1.6 version. Don't know the power handling capability of the trans, but they are pretty popular cars for modding overseas.

tuna55 wrote: Thanks for the heads up. I would also like to solicit your advice on a few other tidbits regarding the 2.2 that you seem to be a bit familiar with. Engine management? Stock short block? Turbo choice?

89+ are called the common block and are the strongest and most common.

Headgaskets are a consumable. Cometic gasket tends to cause holes in pistons before it lets go. Adding a 1/4" feed line from the top of the water pump housing to the small freeze plug at the transmission side of the head will help reduce hot spots, detonation and increase the life of the gasket/pistons.

2.2 turbo in 89 was a T2 (intercooled SOHC turbo) came with forged rods and crank. Pretty much overkill with the cast pistons and the crank will handle 500hp (but it is HEAVY) had improved cooling at the headgasket.

2.2 in 90/91 was essentially the same, except the turbo changed from a standard Garrett to a Garrett VNT. Called it the T4. VNT is much too small for big power and was replaced by the 2.5L and tiny Mitsubishi turbo (TE04H) as it had similar power curve and response at a considerable savings.

2.5L turbo was all the same from 89-92. All of them were non-intercooled SOHC, with the same intake as the T2 (minus the Charge Temp Sensor and black paint) Probably the better choice for power in the SOHC series as it has quite a bit more torque. Just ditch the Mitsu turbo for a proper Garrett or Holset and enjoy :)

Engine management from 89-90 is reprogrammable via the T-D community. Late 91 and 92 the EFI switched to sequential injection and it hasn't been cracked.

Lots of info in the knowledge center and forums here: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/

Also, a bit old, but good reference data: http://www.thedodgegarage.com

bigdaddylee82 wrote:

If it were me, and the goal was affordable, light weight, power, I'd be all over an Ecotec.

• Lee

I had not looked into this motor in its fwd turbo charged variant. Looks like a good package. What do they weigh?

FWIW here is a youtube vid of a 2.3l volvo 5 banger whiteblock making 271hp and 396ftlbs at the wheels on stock internals, widely available larger stock injectors, and a stock mitsu 19t that came on some 2000 models.

In reply to Shaun:

Well, at the hubs, but not bad. Most I know of is ~650 WHP, from some dude in England. It's HIGHLY modified though.

I've had a recipe for a Franken-Whiteblock stirring in the deep recesses and catacombs of my mind for a couple years now. Early GLT block (S70 not 850) later model (2001-ish) RN head, ditch the VVT, 850/S70 NA cams, R/Japan exhaust manifold, NA intake port matched to RN head, Green injectors, figure out how to get a Holeset HX30/35 on it, might have to ditch the manifold for a tube one. End result should equal a grin every time you're attempting to get traction, and awesome biceps from attempting to control the torque steer. Should be an attainable 400 WHP with Megasquirt and simply treasure hunting the junk yards.

• Lee

turboswede wrote: Engine management from 89-90 is reprogrammable via the T-D community. Late 91 and 92 the EFI switched to sequential injection and it hasn't been cracked.

Does this mean that I am grabbing wires and ECU from the donor car?

Another vote for Chrysler 2.4 here.

I would start with a 95-02 block (PT Cruiser if going into a neon) add SRT pistons and rods for $310

http://www.modernperformance.com/mopar-pistonrod-0305-neon-p-1733.html

The stock SRT4 turbo could just about get to your power goals but since we dont have it lets think outside the box. In the great land of Mexico one could buy a 2.4T Stratus for years before the SRT/PT-T was around. This uses the same turbo as the SRT enigne but on a seprate manifold. The manifold has the Chrysler T-3 flange (3 of 4 bolts are identical to a T3 flange) use it.

Manifold: P/N: 4774966 $103.89

Add Saab or Turbo Ford T-3 or HX35 if you want to get creative with the drill press

Megasquirt and Stage2/3 injectors.

Rough prices:

Long Block: $5-200

Rods&Pistons: $310

Rings&Bearings: $50

Manifold: $105 or used about 200 pesos($15)

Megasquirt (used) $250

Stage 2/3 Injectors: $175

Turbo $0-100

At an absolute maximum you're spending $1200 for 350+hp. Stock neon trans is fine SRT trans is way more expensive and clunkier but comes with an LSD. OBX LSD for neon trans is $350. As long as you stay away from burnouts the neon trans manual and auto are plenty strong.