Remember what a pain it was trying to switch all your old vehicles from R-12 to R-134a? No? Well, that's okay. You'll get to refresh that experience in a few years:
EPA Proposes to Replace and Reduce Harmful Greenhouse Gases
Specifically the Fact Sheet calls out HFC-134a (same as R-134a) as being unacceptable starting in Model Year 2021 (Item 2 on the sheet): Fact Sheet
This is just a 'proposed rule' at the moment, which means it is still open to industry and public response, revision, etc. But then, we all knew R-134a would eventually be outlawed too, right?
As someone who works in developing chemical formulations for a company that focuses on safer home cleaners, I do understand the move. When a chemical is available that has less environmental or human impact, moving away from more harmful chemistry makes sense. Sometimes regulation is necessary to make that happen. There are a long list of chemicals that are currently 'acceptable' simply because we don't have any safer alternatives that can serve the same function.
But oh boy, will it ever be a pain in the ass to change over everything again to the latest approved version....
RossD
PowerDork
7/11/14 7:07 a.m.
R-410a is a popular refrigerant in HVAC equipment.
The refrigerant of the future is R-744 AKA plain ol' CO2.
A lot of these older ones do damage the ozone layer, but the timing of their outlawing conveniently coincides with DuPont's patent expiry...
RossD
PowerDork
7/11/14 7:26 a.m.
GameboyRMH wrote:
The refrigerant of the future is R-744 AKA plain ol' CO2.
A lot of these older ones do damage the ozone layer, but the timing of their outlawing conveniently coincides with DuPont's patent expiry...
But CO2 is a green house gas remember. I think what you'll want is R-718, water. 
GameboyRMH wrote:
The refrigerant of the future is R-744 AKA plain ol' CO2.
A lot of these older ones do damage the ozone layer, but the timing of their outlawing conveniently coincides with DuPont's patent expiry...
funny how that works, ain't it?
The new refrigerant for mobile applications is going to be R-1234yf. We've been developing prototype systems with it for a couple years.
NOHOME
SuperDork
7/11/14 8:30 a.m.
So Dupont is doing it AGAIN?!
I guess I can't fault them too much. They is capitalist and we is capitalist and its a capitalist eat capitalist world.
RossD wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote:
The refrigerant of the future is R-744 AKA plain ol' CO2.
A lot of these older ones do damage the ozone layer, but the timing of their outlawing conveniently coincides with DuPont's patent expiry...
But CO2 is a green house gas remember. I think what you'll want is R-718, water.
Yeah it is a greenhouse gas, but it's puppies and kittens compared to just about everything else that's been used. If you sequester it from the atmosphere you're carbon-neutral. Water vapor is a greenhouse gas too
In reply to GameboyRMH:
Doesn't matter. CO2 is out as a refrigerant at this point.
Just wait til the EPA tries to regulate flatulance.
I plan to hord some R-134a so I don't get into the situation I am with R-12 right now. I just need to get off my butt and do it.
Can't wait. Mucho excitement in store with more explosive gas solutions being imported from Mexico again.
My only problem with it is that older cars that use R-12 have to be converted to R-134a. That conversion is rather expensive, and when R-12 was outlawed it was purposely made more and more expensive to "encourage" people to stop using it. The problem therein lies that people with less amounts of money generally drive older cars and are thus going to have to shell out a disproportionally higher part of their income in order to fix their aging A/C systems in their cars, or simply drive around with no A/C once their older R-12 system breaks. No A/C is a health risk in certain parts of the country (e.g., the desert of Arizona, where I just spent 2 weeks and had a rental car whose A/C decided to break).
Now this is going to happen all over again in a few years with R-134a being made illegal?
R-12 cars can be converted to R-409a, and you won't lose cooling power like an R134a conversion.
GameboyRMH wrote:
R-12 cars can be converted to R-409a, and you won't lose cooling power like an R134a conversion.
Really? Do you have more info on this?
bravenrace wrote:
The new refrigerant for mobile applications is going to be R-1234A. We've been developing prototype systems with it for a couple years.
Doubtful. The controversy it's stirring up in the EU isn't going away quietly into the night, and in our more litigious society over here, the fire risk is way too much liability. We're going to have a double-standard.
In reply to Javelin:
I'm on the SAE subcommittee that oversees this issue, but I guess you know better than me...
GameboyRMH wrote:
bravenrace wrote:
In reply to GameboyRMH:
Doesn't matter. CO2 is out as a refrigerant at this point.
Why? What happened?
CO2 was labelled as too detrimental to the environment. We had a working system in a Peterbuilt truck about 8 years ago. It works pretty well as a refrigerant, but the greeny weenies made too big a a fuss about it and got it nixed.
bravenrace wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote:
bravenrace wrote:
In reply to GameboyRMH:
Doesn't matter. CO2 is out as a refrigerant at this point.
Why? What happened?
CO2 was labelled as too detrimental to the environment. We had a working system in a Peterbuilt truck about 8 years ago. It works pretty well as a refrigerant, but the greeny weenies made too big a a fuss about it and got it nixed.
LOL are you serious? I could see a bunch of crazy scientifically illiterate greenpeace-types doing that, but for anyone else it makes no sense! Like I said, it's puppies and kittens compared to all the other refrigerants, and you can even source it in a way that is carbon-neutral, meaning it takes nothing to obtain but the energy involved in extracting and compressing it. Which could come from renewable sources.
Interference from parties with a vested interest would make a lot more sense for nixing R744...
Sky_Render wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote:
R-12 cars can be converted to R-409a, and you won't lose cooling power like an R134a conversion.
Really? Do you have more info on this?
Hope this helps, I'm not an expert.
http://www.refrigerants.com/hcfc-r409a.htm
http://www.hvacrinfo.com/cope_ae_bulletins/93-03.PDF
GameboyRMH wrote:
bravenrace wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote:
bravenrace wrote:
In reply to GameboyRMH:
Doesn't matter. CO2 is out as a refrigerant at this point.
Why? What happened?
CO2 was labelled as too detrimental to the environment. We had a working system in a Peterbuilt truck about 8 years ago. It works pretty well as a refrigerant, but the greeny weenies made too big a a fuss about it and got it nixed.
LOL are you serious? I could see a bunch of crazy scientifically illiterate greenpeace-types doing that, but for anyone else it makes no sense! Like I said, it's puppies and kittens compared to all the other refrigerants, and you can even source it in a way that is carbon-neutral, meaning it takes nothing to obtain but the energy involved in extracting and compressing it. Which could come from renewable sources.
Interference from parties with a vested interest would make a lot more sense for nixing R744...
Yes, I'm serious. I don't agree with it, but like everything else, it's big business and politics that make the decisions, not common sense. And it may all change again before its said and done, but right now it's 1234 that is what we're moving forward with.
NOHOME
SuperDork
7/11/14 10:56 a.m.
GameboyRMH wrote:
bravenrace wrote:
In reply to GameboyRMH:
Doesn't matter. CO2 is out as a refrigerant at this point.
Why? What happened?
Pay attention...You missed the first rule of this game. DuPont needs to hold the patent on the solution.
DuPont can't patent it CO2! If they could, you would have to pay them a royalty for every beer sold.
In reply to NOHOME:
While I can't confirm that this is true, I wouldn't at all be surprised if it is.
Lucky gases aren't as patentable as software or the USPTO would rubber stamp the hell out of their application for it!
I wonder if they could patent CO2 on a computer?
