Keith Tanner said:
Just because "I did it once and nothing happened" doesn't mean it can't happen. I'd be most concerned with tires that are cold-soaked, not tires that start warm.
Here's a warning for the Yokohama Fleva. That's a 300TW summer tire. Turns out that summer is not winter.
Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.
Are tires sitting in a garage, that is not temperature controlled, in winter not "cold-soaked" enough? Or then driving to the track and sitting outside for a few hours before the first session in sub-freezing temps not cold soaked? We all know it's CYA for a small possibility that something may happen. And it's not just me. There were people out on Hoosiers those same cold track days I've been too, those and other sticky tires were just sitting out in the wind and cold before the morning sessions as well.
Not you, but in general, the last few years many people seem to think that because something is possible, that makes it probable.
As always when it comes to this stuff, it's up to the person to determine their level of risk. I'd be more worried about plenty of other things before the temperature for the tires at HPDE.
dps214
Reader
2/24/20 10:28 a.m.
Yeah, one data point isn't great. But pretty much any half serious autocrosser that lives anywhere other than the deep south has driven to and competed in an event in temperatures under 40* with no ill effects. Short term driving on them in low temps has little to no effect on their performance. Medium to long term storage in those temps (especially on the car, ie with load on them) does. This has been pretty well tested out by this point. Yes I understand that street tires today are grippier than r comps of yesteryear, but that's because of technology advancements...which have been applied to r comps too. They're still use different tread compounds and internal structures that seem to make them much more susceptible to surface cracking from cold temps than 200TW tires.
Sorry, I did not realize that your garage was unheated.
The warning comes from people who know more about tires than anyone on this forum, so I do have a tendency to lean towards their expertise. If the manufacturer tells me not to drive below a certain temperature because of low traction, I'll take that under advisement and drive accordingly. If the manufacturer tells me it could lead to tire damage which would lead to a blowout, well, I'm going to pay real attention because that's not always a situation that ends well. Especially on track.
It is interesting that Yokohama includes such a specific warning for the Fleva but did not for the S.drive it replaced. There may be a difference in design or compound involved.
Keith, does Yokohama include that specific warning? Or Tire Rack? The wording is identical to what I posted earlier off TRs website and they do that for all Max Perf Summer tires. I took a cursory look around and I can't find that warning on other distributor websites or on Yokohama's site itself.
Also, unheated garage in the south doesn't mean much. My garage is unheated, but its min temp is in the mid 50s or so.
Keith Tanner said:
Sorry, I did not realize that your garage was unheated.
The warning comes from people who know more about tires than anyone on this forum, so I do have a tendency to lean towards their expertise. If the manufacturer tells me not to drive below a certain temperature because of low traction, I'll take that under advisement and drive accordingly. If the manufacturer tells me it could lead to tire damage which would lead to a blowout, well, I'm going to pay real attention because that's not always a situation that ends well. Especially on track.
It is interesting that Yokohama includes such a specific warning for the Fleva but did not for the S.drive it replaced. There may be a difference in design or compound involved.
My main point was what dps214 pointed out, plenty have done it for years and we don't hear about it. Those freezing cold track days? I wasn't the only one their on RComps. Guys went out on Hoosiers the first session in sub-freezing temps.
So while I don't doubt the tire manufacturers when they say "X COULD happen" from practical experience it seems it very rarely does.
ProDarwin said:
Keith, does Yokohama include that specific warning? Or Tire Rack? The wording is identical to what I posted earlier off TRs website and they do that for all Max Perf Summer tires. I took a cursory look around and I can't find that warning on other distributor websites or on Yokohama's site itself.
Also, unheated garage in the south doesn't mean much. My garage is unheated, but its min temp is in the mid 50s or so.
That's why I also pointed out my car sitting outside, at the track, in sub-freezing temps...............along with all the other race cars and HPDE drivers.............all on 200TW or Hoosiers.
But I'm also told R888s and other 200TW tires will literally kill you in the rain................yet I've done wet track days on R888s and R1Rs.
I get the desire to be cautious and smart, but I also think people tend to go overboard proselytizing safety on the internet.
That's off Tire Rack. They don't add the warning to all of their summer tires - see the S.drive for a counter-example. But I don't see it on the consumer Yokohama site. I do know that Toyo is very specific about care of their tires in cold weather and that information is literally on the tire itself as well as easy to find on their website. And the R888R is on their list of "no cold weather" operation including a photo of a failed tire.
Getting some bad safety information isn't the same as all safety information being bad. Obviously, we all get to make our own decisions as to what we think constitutes a legitimate risk. I tend to bang on about how certain tubular subframes can crack based on my own experience of destroying several of them, but a lot of people discount these warnings because they don't want it to be true and because they haven't all failed yet. You get to make your own choice.
I had a few sets of 200tw tires crack from being mounted and sitting in my unheated garage over some pa winters.
They were bfg rivals and the direzza zii. All of them cracked just sitting around. All of them had a few track days on them.
Granted it got VERY cold!
That being said, I have been to a couple of champcar and lemons races were it snowed. No issues other then an amazing lack of grip.
In other words, how much are your tires worth to you? Especially when an all season will most likely have more grip in the same situation?
So, long story short is that these are the ONLY set of tures for the car at this time. And i just paid $400 for them.
I appreciate the thread. Seems that theres enough risk of failure to make me think about bailing on the event. Unless the forecast significantly changes, im out.
I got some used tires you can have if ya wanna come get them and take the risk.... Summerville sc.
225 45 15 rs4.
Keith Tanner said:
That's off Tire Rack. They don't add the warning to all of their summer tires - see the S.drive for a counter-example. But I don't see it on the consumer Yokohama site. I do know that Toyo is very specific about care of their tires in cold weather and that information is literally on the tire itself as well as easy to find on their website. And the R888R is on their list of "no cold weather" operation including a photo of a failed tire.
Hmm, you are right it isn't on all of them. However, those that do have the warning all have the same exact language as far as I can tell.
I am curious how they (TR) make this call. If the manufacturer is providing this information, why are other distributors not publishing it?
On a related note, do dealers need to replace the tires on their performance cars that they have after the winter time? If you show up for a test drive on a 35-40 deg day but it was 18F overnight, will you be turned away?
Robbie
MegaDork
2/24/20 1:18 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Keith Tanner said:
That's off Tire Rack. They don't add the warning to all of their summer tires - see the S.drive for a counter-example. But I don't see it on the consumer Yokohama site. I do know that Toyo is very specific about care of their tires in cold weather and that information is literally on the tire itself as well as easy to find on their website. And the R888R is on their list of "no cold weather" operation including a photo of a failed tire.
On a related note, do dealers need to replace the tires on their performance cars that they have after the winter time? If you show up for a test drive on a 35-40 deg day but it was 18F overnight, will you be turned away?
I have no clue, but my hipshot is they will absolutely give you a test drive with zero worry. They might mention that the tires have low grip in the cold. Might.
Rodan
Dork
2/24/20 3:40 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
I am curious how they (TR) make this call. If the manufacturer is providing this information, why are other distributors not publishing it?
On a related note, do dealers need to replace the tires on their performance cars that they have after the winter time? If you show up for a test drive on a 35-40 deg day but it was 18F overnight, will you be turned away?
I spoke with TR on this issue in Nov 2018, and my impression is that they're going from both mfgr recommendations, and their experiences with customers. For example, I was told at the time that Conti ECS and Michelin P4S both carried the same warning, but they had actually had customer reports of damage with the P4S, but not with the ECS. Anecdotal, certainly, but it was clear they were getting some actual feedback from customers.
As to the dealer question, when we were buying our ZL1 (which is one of the cars on the GM bulletin referenced earlier) the dealership staff was COMPLETELY CLUELESS about the warning, and it's common for us to have overnight temps in the twenties, and we even see single digits a few times each winter. With more cars coming on specialty summer tires, I think the knowledge is spreading, but your average car salesmen likely won't have a clue.
stuart in mn said:
Dusterbd13-michael said:
AnthonyGS said:
Maybe a phone call to Federal?
E36 M3.
I honestly hadn't thought of that.
Is there a tech line number?
Federal Tire North America, LLC.
370 Amapola Ave, Suite 215, Torrance, CA 90501
P: (310) 328-1888
F: (310) 328-1188
E: info@federaltire.com
www.federaltireusa.com
OK Google. What's a good chicken Marsala recipe for dinner?
In reply to Olemiss540 :
You're AWESOME. i couldn't find that with google. Just the overseas email address.
Ill call them at lunch!
My Miata has been parked outside in Atlanta all winter on 1 year old RS4's with maybe 3-4 track days on them. I haven't driven it all winter, but I did pump them up to 38psi before parking. Guess we'll see how they do this spring.
