Race class idea...

Let's assume you wanted to start a series similar to Champcar but focused on building prototype endurance cars instead of using production-based vehicles.  Any ideas on what that might look like?

Radical or NP01 are the two I'm aware of, bigger west coast than east coast or so I'm told.

F500/F600?

bandolero/thunder roadster?

i could imagine a locust (Lotus 7) series with a common frame template.

Old dirt track cars. They are a dime a dozen and there's all sorts of different setups from Super Modifieds with the offset engines to sprint cars to the ARCA and NASCAR style cars. From there allow wide open engines and homemade bodies. If prototype is what you're after I'd go Can Am to 00's LeMans look with open cockpits, single plane divorced wing, and single splitter with no other aero. Maybe do spec wings? 

What the rules might look like? What the cars might look like? Take away rules and you get CanAm, no matter what the budget. 

"Thinking" like SCCA I am semi-proud to announce the formation of a new Spec class. With the proliferation of SUV's and crossovers we are announcing  . . . (pause for effect) . . . Spec Toaster. 

My inspiration for the idea is wondering about how to re-create the excitement of the innovation and ideas of the Can-Am while trying to restrain costs like Champcar.  I'm thinking a field of 30 homebuilts ranging from DSR and CSR type cars with all kinds of varying drivetrains, endurance racing would be a blast to watch.  If you could keep the costs down (WAY down...) then it might be fun to see what showed up.  

Anyone interested in pursuing it?  I've got some ideas...

I'm close enough. I would be interested to hear what you have in mind. I have a friend who builds dirt modified race cars for a living. I have wanted to build some sort of open wheel car from an S-10 frame for years. But had no real reason to pursue it.

In reply to stroker :

Building a car from scratch requires a solid 2000-2500 man hours. To build it solidly reliably and safe

. 
Next budget's must be limited or you quickly price yourself  out of the market. Racing is a disposable income choice.  Do I go racing this year or take an expensive European vacation sort of money. 
 

Frankly the basic format of Champcar  is right on the budget many can afford. My sole objection is the requirement of have 4 or more guys race a car one guy built. 
 

Eliminate the endurance requirement. Maybe by allowing someone to "practice" or " qualify" ( once past a safety inspection)  without actually  entering the race?  
Pay one entry fee. Allow one driver.  Perhaps the builder could generate enough interest to draw sufficient drivers to add the car to the race?  

In reply to frenchy

the Endurance format wouldn't be an absolute essential feature--there's no reason you couldn't do a couple of sprint races in your season to give individual guys a chance, but my original thought was that if you could piggyback on an existing series (e.g. Champcar) then it would take all the organization and logistics off the table for finding a place to run your homebuilt.  If we take your numbers above, you could get four participants to help build the car/fund the team and that 2K hour build time gets pretty reasonable pretty fast.  Somebody who has built a Challenge car might have an opinion on that.  I'd have to believe that a racing series, faced with the prospect of having an additional 20+ entries for the weekend, is not likely to tell them to go away and find somebody else to give their money to.  Or am I wrong on that?

Nothing about "prototype endurance cars" sounds like anything that might be affordable to most.

L5wolvesf said:

"Thinking" like SCCA I am semi-proud to announce the formation of a new Spec class. With the proliferation of SUV's and crossovers we are announcing  . . . (pause for effect) . . . Spec Toaster. 

That day may be coming sooner than you think...

Hp and torque numbers added together may not exceed 20 percent of the cars weight and use a spec DOT approved 300 Tread ware tire. Top four finishing cars are put on scales and a dyno as they exit the track. Officials can test any car at any point during a race. If a car is pulled in for testing and passes their place in the race is restored via scoring and timing. If you are caught cheating during post race inspection or in a in race inspection you are stripped of all season points and no points will be awarded for 5 consecutive races.  This can carry over from one season to another. You will be allowed to race. You are just racing with your self. 2nd offend and a one year ban. Third and you are out for 5 years.  Other than that it has to have four wheels on the ground at all times and adhere to SCCA safety standards. 

I've never seen a dyno rule work well.  There's just too much variability from chassis dyno to chassis dyno or even day to day.  I've seen as much as a 10% variation on my chassis dyno and I've seen numbers differ from dyno to dyno of 30%+ just in the Albuquerque area.

dean1484 said:

Hp and torque numbers added together may not exceed 20 percent of the cars weight and use a spec DOT approved 300 Tread ware tire. Top four finishing cars are put on scales and a dyno as they exit the track. Officials can test any car at any point during a race. If a car is pulled in for testing and passes their place in the race is restored via scoring and timing. If you are caught cheating during post race inspection or in a in race inspection you are stripped of all season points and no points will be awarded for 5 consecutive races.  This can carry over from one season to another. You will be allowed to race. You are just racing with your self. 2nd offend and a one year ban. Third and you are out for 5 years.  Other than that it has to have four wheels on the ground at all times and adhere to SCCA safety standards. 

So..........just buy a Legends car and do endurance races instead of sprint races?

nderwater said:

F500/F600?

bandolero/thunder roadster?

i could imagine a locust (Lotus 7) series with a common frame template.

F5/6 cars might have a problem with fuel capacity depending on how long you want a stint to go. Its hard to fit enough fuel in the chassis for more than a 45 minute session. In the case of my KBS the cell is under my back/shoulders and only 5 gallons. The cars are packaged tightly enough that more than that is prohibitive. 

That said, 45min between pitstops may not be the end of the world. 

In reply to Apexcarver :

I'd love to hear your driving impressions -- that's a pretty fascinating platform (light weight, bike engine) and I've always been curious to hear what they are actually like to drive.

In reply to nderwater :

You asking about the F500?

Well, mine has the snowmobile 494cc with CVT. That said I did drive an FSAE car some a long time ago, so I have experience on that side a bit too.

There are a number of different chassis and a number of different driving positions. Mine is very laid back and in some ways the reclined driving position drives the experience. Its something to get used to. A friend who got got a Solo championship in a GS car described the seating position as "nuts". You dont hop in and out as easily as you do a doorslammer, you work your legs down into it and have to dip your toes under the steering rack.

After strapping into it, when you fire it up you feel a good amount of vibration from the solidly mounted 2 stroke. It isnt hateful, but its there. You have to left foot brake as there simply isnt room in the footbox to do otherwise. With the CVT there is no clutch pedal, just gas and brake. Like an automatic transmission car, you use the brake to keep it from inching forward, but its not as smooth as the cars automatic transmission and you cant really depend on that to move the car. You can blip the gas and not really engauge the drive, the engine revs before engagement, then when the RPM get to a sufficient point (its maybe 2krpm? I dont have a tach) it engages and moves the car, if the RPM drops below that, it disengages and free coasts.

Leaving the startline..  Well, IT MOVES and the sensation is enhanced by the layback in my chassis. Imagine laying in bed with 3-4 pillows propping you up and experiencing the acceleration. Steering position, well my car still has all the bars to be roadrace legal, so elbows in with arms outstretched to a grip on a small wheel thats a bit past your waist. Steering is manual, so if you are coming from power steering that takes some adjustment. Steering is quick though, so its responsive. It corners well, rather well, you dont have to wait for weight to shift. Much more direct than the tightest Miata. Think a Kart with more substance. The rear axle is kind of like having a welded diff. There isnt a differential, the two rear wheels spin at the same rate. throttle on, its easy to walk the rear end, it has a predictable characteristic up to a point where you ask too much of it and it just comes around. If you do loop it, the car is light enough that it doesnt really slide too far. Slow in fast out is the order of the day, with the locked rear turn-in is a chassis tuning challenge that you tune around and drive around. The other factor is the CVT engagement RPM, when the RPM drops when you are off-throttle it disengages (engine RPM dependant, not roadspeed) and there is that moments delay after stepping on the pedal for the RPM to get back to the engagement speed. Its responsive, but there is a "rubberband" sensation about that delay. it can be managed because you are left foot braking and it is predictable, just something to get a feel for. Think turbo lag, but more predictable. Yeah, managing that and the locked rear characteristic sounds like it would be daunting, it isnt as bad as you are thinking, its easy to adjust to after little driving time. 

Can't talk to track days, but for autocross, I really dont miss shifting at all. The constant thrust without the interruption of powerband and shifting gives you this giddy greedy feeling that is quite lovable. 

That said, the positive connection of the motorcycle drivetrain from the FSAE days would have its merits as well. All other things equal, CVT for autocross, Moto for track is what I would look at. Getting something with motorcycle power moving from a stop has its challenges, low rotating mass makes it VERY easy to stall. The FSAE car I drove had electropneumatic paddle shift with ECU ignition inturrupt so you could flat shift without lifting. We also had a hand clutch, which you would likely do on most F5/6 cars as well. Considering you only use it when getting rolling from a stop, its not that bad. 

I ran it last year on old tires in the roadrace sizes which has narrower fronts, this year was to be the first on fresh autocross sizes, but covid has kept it on the stand in the shop. Should really help turn-in phase a lot from other Fmod drivers reports. 

If only legends cars were safer and easier to get out of once crumbled.