Racing on a tiny or almost no budget.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I am somewhere around 6'1"  (back injury seems to have made me shorter) and 165lbs.  Car fitment is taking a little work to ensure passing broomstick and neck comfort, but nothing too far out there. Perhaps unique to my car (KBS MK7) is that the most limiting thing for people fitting is shoulder width, nothing to do with waistline - I could be 4 inches wider in the hips and still fit fine. (size 34 pants)

Frenchy: the higher level formula cars you are talking about were sprint races in very highly funded categories. I think you would agree that its not wholly fair to compare with cars built for amateur competition or with cars that were built for endurance racing. 

One question each person has to answer for themselves is how fast do you need to go to get your fix?  At least for autocross, after 18 years, slower cars werent doing it for me.  I could see similarities and differences with big track stuff.  Frenchy is right that there isnt a much cheaper way to go fast than a formula car.  Also, people tend to be less argy-bargy in formula car classes. You dont have Spec Pinata bent fenders happening. 

 I would say, that Formula Ford is worth an additional consideration despite being more expensive than F500 for larger run groups. 

Apexcarver said:

 

One question each person has to answer for themselves is how fast do you need to go to get your fix?  At least for autocross, after 18 years, slower cars werent doing it for me.  I could see similarities and differences with big track stuff.  Frenchy is right that there isnt a much cheaper way to go fast than a formula car.  Also, people tend to be less argy-bargy in formula car classes. You dont have Spec Pinata bent fenders happening. 

 I would say, that Formula Ford is worth an additional consideration despite being more expensive than F500 for larger run groups. 

The F500 got me autocrossing again; they are fast as autocross cars go. It's a very different driving style from my Datsun but I really like the challenge.

I eyeball Formula Ford from time to time as those have bigger fields; at vintage races they get their own group but they require more maintenance and so the costs are higher. It is possible to find a good Formula Ford in the 10K -12K zone. 

At the end of the day I always come back to F500 offers Formula Ford performance for Improved Touring money and maintenance schedules.

Keep in mind I just want other cars to race with, so I don't car if they are Sports 2000s, FC or sports racers.

Tom1200 said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Our little 500cc two stroke cars use 12 gallons a weekend (plus two bottles of Yamalube R) which works out to $140 in fuel/oil costs.  You don't need to change the oil as it goes out the exhaust.

I've just had to change the rear pads on the car after 7 years (er probably should do it more often) the fronts are still good.

Formula cars are so much cheaper to run then production cars; mostly because they run some type of spec/stock engine be it Ford 1600, 2000 or in our case standard snowmobile engines but also because the are lighter they don't have tendency to burn through tires and brake pads.

The Formula 500 lap record at Elkhart Lake is a 2:23, pretty good performance especially considering these cars can be purchased for as little as $4000.   

 

I had to go back and reread that statement. Lap record a 2.23?  Wow!!!!  That is impressive. 
The only lap I got timed on the Group 44 XJR 5  was a 2.17. .  To be fair that could have been a cool off lap or something. Because the way he passed cars ahead of him and opened up on the rest off the field in a 1/2 lap was shattering.  Going into turn 6 he was 3rd  coming up on turn 14 ( you can see both from the grandstands at 5)  he was 2 football fields ahead and at start finish it was more then 3.  
    Back to your F500.  That's seriously faster than a 70's 454 Corvette !  Which I suspect costs more for 1 lap than you spend in a season!   

Here's one for you frenchy.

In reply to frenchyd :

Here are some other class lap records for F500

Brainerd 1:36.11

Mosport 1:27.725

Blackhawk 1:11.332

These cars turn very respectable lap times.

I like formula 500, but I'd prefer the originals. Post WW2 it was started using single seater open wheel cars driven by single cylinder motorcycle engines engines like Norton BSA JAP  Royal Enfield running on alcohol. 
     The most famous alma mater of that group was a young Stirling Moss 

  What I really love is the smell of Caster Oil used as a lubricant back in those days. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm fan of the 50s Formula 500s as well.

In reply to Apexcarver :

HA you should have seen my eyes when the car went into the first corner and. didnt. really. slow. down!!

8o

In reply to P3PPY :

As a long term driver of a T series MG it's rare to slow for a corner, but at the velocity he was going that would be a real check your shorts moment. 

Tom1200 said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm fan of the 50s Formula 500s as well.

Group 1 ( pre war and MGT series)  was  easily won by a 1935 Ford Indy car.    If I was starting from scratch I'd look around for a 500 cc British single  or a Buick straight 8. And fabricate a chassis and body from scratch.  Those early Coopers had such simple chassis. As did the early Indy cars. There are plenty of how to's on U tube to teach you how to work aluminum.  Heck the Italians used to steal road signs and pound out those beautiful bodies on stumps with home made hammers.  Gas welding them together.  Scrap metal places sell surplus aluminum sheets for a fraction of what ordering them new would cost.   Yes it would take some time. ( but it would keep you out of the bars and from chasing girls of low moral character ) 

Every time I see either a MG T series or a flathead ford I think about my lust for a period correct special combining the two.  It's probably a bad idea for a number of reasons.

P3PPY said:

In reply to Apexcarver :

HA you should have seen my eyes when the car went into the first corner and. didnt. really. slow. down!!

8o

This why I'm such a fan of open wheel / single seat cars. You can do things in a 800-1200lb car that can't be done in any road car. Also visually it's similar to my motorcycle road racing experience. 

If you want a really eye opener check out the on board of a SCCA P2 car. Note these cars really don't belong in the thread as they are anything but cheap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxJ19lfv0n4

In reply to Apexcarver :

I've had similar thoughts; I think one could be done cheaply but it would be a lot more labor intensive then our F500s.

In reply to Tom1200 :

NO DOUBT!   I shudder to think what it would take to keep a roadrace flathead alive.  I just have a romantic attraction to it.  I love the early 50's era of roadracing. 

Please help me to understand this whole 'pick the car you want to drive' thing, as it's not really making sense to me.

If my main goal is competing against myself and the clock, sure I'll care more about the car than the competition. But at that point, it's basically just an over-priced 'advanced' run group track day... Which is what a lot of vintage racers seem to be doing anyway. And while totally acceptable, not really what we're talking about here.

However, if my main goal is competing against other cars and drivers, I'll care more about the competition than the car. I'd start with looking at the classes that have the most competition and widest applicability, then within that class looking at what I can afford that's competitive, and finally picking the 'one I most want to drive' from that bunch. But I struggle to see the point in stepping 'up' to W2W from track days, if actually competing wheel-to-wheel is going to be the exception rather than the rule.

As cars, F500 are absolutely awesome in my book! The problem for me with F500 is that I can't justify one for competing only against myself and the clock, but there also aren't enough regularly running locally to justify one for the competition. If it weren't for that fatal flaw, F500 would probably be at the top of my list if I ever have the space and time that I'm willing and able to dedicate to getting into W2W.

In reply to Driven5 :

You do have a point, which I was touching on with the FF example. Only problem is that the buy-in is about 2x what I have in my F500. Locally, you get into a run group and run against other classes, or travel for events with more F500s at them.

I looked at Formula V, but talking with some people running them I had a hard time getting into the narrow tires and lack of engine longevity they were telling me about.  Similar money to F500, but a LOT slower. 

Apexcarver said:

Every time I see either a MG T series or a flathead ford I think about my lust for a period correct special combining the two.  It's probably a bad idea for a number of reasons.

It really depends on how hard you want to push either. If you have to win it will be expensive.   Very expensive.   If you just like the fun and respect the equipment it can be done unbelievably cheap. 
Ford flatheads have modern parts available that dramatically improve power and reliability. While they are not cheap they aren't that much more expensive than the cost of repairing worn out components to run reliably. 
Same with MG T series. 
The problem with both is now you are capable of exceeding the original limits by a significant amount. IE faster. But faster means wear is faster.  margins are reduced. 
   So do you use originals and go slower yet at a risk or use new, go faster at a cost?  

Driven5 said:

Please help me to understand this whole 'pick the car you want to drive' thing, as it's not really making sense to me.

If my main goal is competing against myself and the clock, sure I'll care more about the car than the competition. But at that point, it's basically just an over-priced 'advanced' run group track day... Which is what a lot of vintage racers seem to be doing anyway. And while totally acceptable, not really what we're talking about here.

However, if my main goal is competing against other cars and drivers, I'll care more about the competition than the car. I'd start with looking at the classes that have the most competition and widest applicability, then within that class looking at what I can afford that's competitive, and finally picking the 'one I most want to drive' from that bunch. But I struggle to see the point in stepping 'up' to W2W from track days, if actually competing wheel-to-wheel is going to be the exception rather than the rule.

As cars, F500 are absolutely awesome in my book! The problem for me with F500 is that I can't justify one for competing only against myself and the clock, but there also aren't enough regularly running locally to justify one for the competition. If it weren't for that fatal flaw, F500 would probably be at the top of my list if I ever have the space and time that I'm willing and able to dedicate to getting into W2W.

I will try and articulate this by telling you where I am at.

When I had the D-sports racer, I loved driving it but hated owning it. Sure I set a class lap record with the car but it needed constant attention and dollars.

The Datsun is fun but it's slow and won't be competitive unless I spend serious money on the engine, which then takes me back to the problem with the D-sports.

The F500 is fun to drive, doesn't need any more maintenance then the Datsun 1200 and is just as cheap. I run it in the wings and slicks group at vintage races. Once I get the Rotax motor in the car (20 more hp) I should be contesting for top 5s in the group. I'm the only one racing an F500 in vintage but I don't care what class of car I dice with so long as there is someone to race. 

So for W2W the F500 ticks all the boxes; cheap, fun to drive, fast and I have cars to race against. For me it's the right car.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I am curious what the high maintenance items of the DSR were. 

In reply to Tom1200 :

So you find that it's sufficiently equal in performance to the other more popular classes that it runs with to still generally have one or more others running similar lap times to challenge you? Which other classes are they from typically?

Apexcarver said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I am curious what the high maintenance items of the DSR were. 

So initially we had a teething problem that led to grenading 2 motors before we figured it out, so discounting that the items were:

Tires: it pulled 3Gs on the brakes so needed fresh tires every weekend.

Rod Ends; initially it had cheap rod ends on it, I went to better quality rods ends but again the G loads involved wore them out fairly quickly.

From a maintenance standpoint the entire car needed stripping and inspecting. Not that I really ever found lots of things loose (safety wire and metal style nylocks)

We used mid range dampers and I had those serviced every other year as I didn't do a huge amount of races in a given year.

Driven5 said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

So you find that it's sufficiently equal in performance to the other more popular classes that it runs with to still generally have one or more others running similar lap times to challenge you? Which other classes are they from typically?

So VSCDA just ran Elkart Lake; the single F500 running was put in with the Formula Fords. The driver is a top flight F500 driver and ran around 14th or so out of 30 Formula Fords.

I'm running with VARA and they put me in the wings and slicks group; this group runs Formula Atlantic, Formula Mazda, Formula Continental, Formula Super Vee, D sports racers, Sports 2000s plus other misc sports racers.  Currently I can  get close to the older Sports 2000s or the slower Sports 2000 drivers. Last October I had a great dice with an Ex-Jim Clark Lotus 23B for the glory of 11th out of 14 cars, the driver pushed me hard and we had a great time. The F500 is the least powerful car in the group so I could clobbered on the run down to turn 1 but to be honest I like the challenge of trying to reel cars back in. The Rotax motor will add 20 more hp so it will bump me up to the next group of cars, that should take me between 5-7th over all.  

For the most these older F500s run mid-pack Formula Ford lap times. The newer F500s, if thrown in with FFs, are capable of being on the pole. 

Tom1200 said:

Driven5 said:

Please help me to understand this whole 'pick the car you want to drive' thing, as it's not really making sense to me.

If my main goal is competing against myself and the clock, sure I'll care more about the car than the competition. But at that point, it's basically just an over-priced 'advanced' run group track day... Which is what a lot of vintage racers seem to be doing anyway. And while totally acceptable, not really what we're talking about here.

However, if my main goal is competing against other cars and drivers, I'll care more about the competition than the car. I'd start with looking at the classes that have the most competition and widest applicability, then within that class looking at what I can afford that's competitive, and finally picking the 'one I most want to drive' from that bunch. But I struggle to see the point in stepping 'up' to W2W from track days, if actually competing wheel-to-wheel is going to be the exception rather than the rule.

As cars, F500 are absolutely awesome in my book! The problem for me with F500 is that I can't justify one for competing only against myself and the clock, but there also aren't enough regularly running locally to justify one for the competition. If it weren't for that fatal flaw, F500 would probably be at the top of my list if I ever have the space and time that I'm willing and able to dedicate to getting into W2W.

I will try and articulate this by telling you where I am at.

When I had the D-sports racer, I loved driving it but hated owning it. Sure I set a class lap record with the car but it needed constant attention and dollars.

The Datsun is fun but it's slow and won't be competitive unless I spend serious money on the engine, which then takes me back to the problem with the D-sports.

The F500 is fun to drive, doesn't need any more maintenance then the Datsun 1200 and is just as cheap. I run it in the wings and slicks group at vintage races. Once I get the Rotax motor in the car (20 more hp) I should be contesting for top 5s in the group. I'm the only one racing an F500 in vintage but I don't care what class of car I dice with so long as there is someone to race. 

So for W2W the F500 ticks all the boxes; cheap, fun to drive, fast and I have cars to race against. For me it's the right car.

 

 

That's absolutely the right attitude to vintage race with.  Who cares what class others are in? Have a good dice, challenge and enjoy  yourself.  
    

Tom1200 said:

Apexcarver said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I am curious what the high maintenance items of the DSR were. 

So initially we had a teething problem that led to grenading 2 motors before we figured it out, so discounting that the items were:

Tires: it pulled 3Gs on the brakes so needed fresh tires every weekend.

Rod Ends; initially it had cheap rod ends on it, I went to better quality rods ends but again the G loads involved wore them out fairly quickly.

From a maintenance standpoint the entire car needed stripping and inspecting. Not that I really ever found lots of things loose (safety wire and metal style nylocks)

We used mid range dampers and I had those serviced every other year as I didn't do a huge amount of races in a given year.

The current lap record in F500 would have put you in the front half of the 1966 Can Am races.  

In reply to frenchyd :

Woof, I had never looked at laptimes from then to compare. Probably a lot of tire advancement gets much of that credit.