Rally car build.

So I have wanted to do this for ages, and now with a slightly more realistic view, and lots of mechanical experience I think it may be worth a shot. I am after a 2wd heavy, not sure on the class number, nasa rallysport car. I am going rear wheel drive. I know if is generally considered better for beginners, and I have an old mki gti hanging around, but it doesn't get me all that excited, and I am only likely to do this once, so I want something that turns me on. I have been looking at the cheap fr platforms around where I live, and here are the three on my list: 

Mustang fox body 5.0

Wb: 100"

W:69"

Wght:2700 lb

Hght:52"

Pros, cheap power, light weight, 'murcan.

Cons, not really made for windy roads, live rear axle will kill rough road handling.

Nissan z31 300zx turbo

Wb: 91"

W:67"

Wght:3000 lb

Hght:49"

Pros, short and low, indipendent suspension, 4 wheel discs.

Cons, not the greatest suspension design, not as much easily googled aftermarket.

Toyota Supra mkiii

Wb:102"

W:69

Wght:3400 lb

Hght:51".

Pros, indipendent suspension, 4 wheel discs, unequal arm design, relatively well supported.

Cons, longest and heaviest, questionable engine depending on who you talk to.

Now I know those are all big heavy powerful cars, but here is my thinking. I can't afford to build and re build, and re build a little 4 banger into a competitive engine, or even a fun engine to drive, so my idea is to start with an engine that is in the 200-250 hp range, and fortify what it already makes, big oil pump, oil cooler, arp bolts, racing head gaskets, big radiator, and then focus on the chassis, which is by far the bulk of a good rally car. All these cars can be had under $1000 around where I am if I am patient, so it doesn't matter out of the gate.

Sorry for the long winded post. Maybe if I am lucky I will be able to lay a chassis up for seam welding, reenforcing, and roll bar this winter. Please give any advice or input if you have it. Thanks a bunch.

Live axle is actually not a bad thing for rally- many of the faster 2wd cars had them.  Between the three you have there, I'd say the Supra is the one to rule out- just way, WAY too heavy and the weight can't be taken out easily.  They also won't fit 15" wheels which are a necessity for rally tires.

The Z31 could be interesting, I know a 280zx was campaigned successfully by Greg Healy for a long time so if the suspension is similar that may be a reasonable option.  The Foxbody has also been done by Mike Hurst and Mark Utecht.  All three of those guys would be good to ask about your options.  For any of these you're going to be making custom suspension bits.

In general you want simplicity in the suspension design- double a-arms might technically be nice, but that's two arms, four bushings, a shock, and two balljoints to make stronger versions of if you're breaking stuff.  With struts you get to cut most of that in half, less components to worry about is generally less cost.

Since you listed a Supra, I feel like I have to point out that one of my dream rally cars is an 83-85 Celica- rwd, light, simple.  Hard to find though.  Other interesting options to look into are BMW e36s, AE86 Corollas (if you can find one), S13/S14 240SX, and FB/FC RX7s (if you fit with a cage).  I used to rally an FC and now an XR4Ti, if you have questions about either of those fire away!

Oh, and here's a link to another thread with a similar discussion: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/i-wanna-build-a-20xx-rwd-rally-car-help-needed/144934/page1/

All there with you on the 83-85 Celica. Love the notch back gts. My thought on the Supra suspension is that it may be easier for me to beef up the control arms, and have the use of more generic shocks and such, but I don't know. Didn't think about the rims though. I like the e36, but parts are crazy high. Did you run the rotary in the rx7?

In reply to Rallyrodent :

Yep, Rx7 still had a 13b in it- incredibly tough engine under racing use but they're getting harder to find.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

How are s chasis cars? since they are abundant on the import market now?

In reply to MrChaos :

Too many suspension links in the rear but if you solve that they seem pretty decent- well balanced, not too heavy, lots of engine options.

also alot of Y32 platform cars for cheap it seems as well, big 4 door 300zx's it seems

So, I have no firsthand knowledge of any of your proposed cars - I did for a while think about z31/z32 since I know Nissans, but for one reason or another chose not to go that direction (there were several reasons, IIRC, that you don't see ANY of those in the rally community pretty much anyplace even though they're cheap/available/otherwise great cars). Nonack can tell you plenty about Supras/Celicas .  And I love to see oddball cars on the stages, so I'm not trying to talk you out of things. That said - 

I will comment on a few things though:

1. Not sure where you are, but if you're in the Eastern US, FYI NASA rally is all but dead. I think the only full rally NASA still does int he east is Sandblast (which sucks for RWD cars generally). Still strong out west, I hear. But you may want to consider building directly to ARA rules (which are similar) and not focus on NRS. 

1a. NRS logbook is accepted in ARA, so doesn't really matter much, and most of the rules are the same. But check, they're not ALL the same. 

1b. Light vs Heavy (Limited vs. Open in ARA) meh....almost all RWD cars these days  run in Heavy/Open since light/limited is dominated by all the FWD hot hatches and stuff. Even a lot of light/limited-legal RWD cars bump up to open just to get away from all the Fiestas.......Again, don't focus on class, it doesn't matter much at all. Both classes are similar in speed, really, with a few outliers. 

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2. The cars you mention have little to no support for "rally" parts. And very few running in the US, so not much of a template to work off of unless you can find some "archived" stuff from the 80s for the Toyotas. So you'd be on your own in development of much of it - vs other cars available that have more support and more "known rally modifications" that are already proven. Maybe that's what you want to do. But it is more work/cost/trial and error if you have to develop stuff on your own and see what works. 

2a. Remember, if you bring a car that nobody else has, you are on your own with spare parts, know-how, etc. Oddball rally cars are cool as berkeley, but less cool when a common part breaks and you can't find one from another team there, or the local auto parts store in BFE ohio or wherever (not an issue with Mustang, but definitely an issue with the Nissans). Ex: Most rallies have mutiple e30 teams entered, and we usually are in touch regarding "who is brigning what parts to the rally" . The Subaru teams obviously do the same. An oddball car won't find any spares from other teams. 

2b. Going fast is nice. Reliability wins rallies. Whatever you get, get something that won't break constantly. Breaking somethign on the first stage is a good way to waste yoru $1000 entry.....

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3. e36 parts are not expensive (nor are e30 parts, for that matter). Widely available, and both BMWs are tough cars with only a few weak spots, that are well-documented. We've completed 10 out of 11 rallies in a 1985 BMW with virtually nothing broken (the one DNF was an oil pan hit, not mechanical). Look at RWD class entries at any rally and you'll see more e30/e36s than any other kind of car. They're cheap to buy, tough/reliable in general, have aftermarket support for rally stuff (both are rallied heavily in Europe), and there's a large knowledge base on them for rally from other people. Not telling you to get one, just saying don't write them off because of "expensive parts." They're really no more expensive than Nissan Z-cars (nothing is as cheap as a Mustang, so can't compare there). 

3a. e36 318ti is really the best of all worlds for a rally car. And pretty easy to find for cheap. Also good starter cars with the 4cylinder engine (which is easy to swap for something bigger, later). 

3b. Look around results. "Little 4-bangers (even unmodified ones)" win a lot of rallies in 2WD classes. Rally isn't primarily about power. Power just puts you in the trees harder. And is harder to drive until you're experienced. We rallied for 7 years with a 130hp 4-banger and had a great time. Just finally switched to a "powerful" engine (a 190-hp 6cyl). Show up with a 300hp V8 and then be sad when some 100hp Fiesta or 100hp old Volvo crushes your times. Power only buys you so much, and it buys you nothing at all until you know how to handle the car. Upgrading is part of rally (IMO). 

3c. If you talk to most RWD rally drivers, they'll tell you that 200hp is pretty much the most power you can actualy "use" in a RWD car on gravel. Sure, some guys have more. Some of them are fast (and some aren't). Knowing those guys, it's not because of the power. And the ones that do well with big power have heavy, big cars with really good diffs and high-end suspension (ex: Hooper's Lexus). None of those are "across the board" but in general, once you go over 200hp in a RWD rally car, you're not really helping yourself unless you are already a great driver. 

3d. Now, saying that 200hp is really as much as you need, you can throw out all the crazy engine building. A lot of cars on the podiums in the NA 2WD classes are using pretty much stock engines and drivetrains (guys like Chris excepted!). Stock engines for the most part are the most reliable. You also won't see a lot of budget-built rally cars with giant radiators.

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4. You state " start with an engine that is in the 200-250 hp range, and fortify what it already makes, big oil pump, oil cooler, arp bolts, racing head gaskets, big radiator, and then focus on the chassis,"

4b. You should state: "start with chassis, suspension, safety gear, reliability, electonics, and driving. Once all of those are good, reliable, and tough, then do engine stuff." Other than general reliability things, engine power is literally the last thing you shoudl worry about. 

Those are my opinions as someone who has built a car up from scratch, 90hp at the beginning with stock suspension to someone with a reasonably competitive car with 190hp, decent suspension, and very good reliability. We even get on the podium occasionally. 

Others here have a lot of experience as welll and may have different opinions. So also listen to them, they know as much or mor than I do - I'm just giving my 2 cents. YMMV and good luck!

Also - where ARE you located? Have you gone to rallies, volunteered, crewed, talked with local drivers, etc?

In reply to irish44j :

Addendum to point 4.  Any engine built in the last 30 years is engineered to basically be able to live at WOT forever through all sorts of thermal abuse.  So doing anything internally to "reliabileize" is pissing into the wind.

This is a huge reason why E36 M3s are so popular for stage rally in certain European countries.  You can buy them super cheap when they fail Germany's vehicle testing, and they make more power than can be used on gravel, so all you really need is a cage, tires, good suspension, and some balls.   Drivetrain can be left alone.

(disclaimer:  Euro E36 M3s made like 300+hp from a 3 liter, not the warmed over 325i engine we got in the US.  It was much closer to the E46 M3 engine that we did get)

I am in North Central Tennessee. I didn't know that many BMW's were being run over here. I do like them, and generally like German cars, but I figured they must be out of my budget as a steriotype. Lol .

I have been to the asphalt rally down in linden tn, but maybe it's not a thing anymore? Not many e30's around here any more, but lots of e36 cars, even the 318ti is pretty common, so maybe I need to look into them a bit more.

I apriciate all the input, and looking around at regulations and event locations, I think I would be better off to spend my first grand putting rod bearings in my old gti so it doesn't blow chunks on its first outing, and other upkeep stuff, and run some auto x and rally x events. It will be pitifully non competitive as it has been molestisized beond belief, (gutted, stripped back wiring harness, carb swap, poly bushings, scirroco 16v brakes all around, front upper and lower braces, 15" rims, less exhaust than stock, lol, deisel manifold and dual down pipe. If I have any luck/fun with that, then I may find a chassis to start a stage car with. Thanks again, and wish me luck.

I know of an FC with a 13B in the mid Atlantic that'd be a great starting point for a build that's for sale. 

Rallyrodent said:

I am in North Central Tennessee. I didn't know that many BMW's were being run over here. I do like them, and generally like German cars, but I figured they must be out of my budget as a steriotype. Lol .

I have been to the asphalt rally down in linden tn, but maybe it's not a thing anymore? Not many e30's around here any more, but lots of e36 cars, even the 318ti is pretty common, so maybe I need to look into them a bit more.

check out the entry list for this year's Southern Ohio Forest Rally. I think there werel like 10 BMWs running!

They're doing the tarmac rallysprint again this year, and it is NASA. But aside from that and maybe Black River (if it gets going again) and Sandblast, not much happening with NASA here in the east these days. Either way, you can still run ARA or SCCA with a NASA logbooked car, so don't sweat it.

Once you select a car, talk to Marcel Ciasai, who is the NASA logbook inspector for the region. He is a great guy and full of good information, and only lives a few hours from you probably. Definitely talk to him BEFORE you start doing a cage or other stuff. 

318 Ti is a great starter car too, since it's fairly low power. You can really push it hard and not get in too mujch trouble. Same engine we used for years in our e30. Later on you can always swap it for a 6er or turbo it. There are several running currently in ARA. And it being a hatchback with no rear overhang is useful for gear and not hitting trees. If I ever wreck my e30, I'll probably build a 318ti.